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Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

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Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#61

Post by vundercind »

carlosjobim wrote: post #40
jmyeet wrote: post #15

What I don't see in these conversations is how much increasing property prices contribute to killing third places. People get excited because they bought a house for $200k and it's notionally worth $800k now. In reality they haven't gained anything because every house is $800k and you still need somewhere to live so you still only own one housing unit of wealth. Worse, people actively lobby for policies that increase…

> In reality they haven't gained anything because every house is $800k and you still need somewhere to live so you still only own one housing unit of wealth. They can borrow money against the extra value of their house. They don't need to move out. That's what everybody in the landed gentry has been doing for the past two decades.

You can also sell that house and buy a very nice ranch (when you’re old, you won’t want stairs) somewhere that isn’t even a middle-of-nowhere shiathole for half the price. Pocket the rest.

That is why the gains really are actual, useful money for lots of people.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#62

Post by daveoc64 »

firecall wrote: post #12

I've noticed students working in the IKEA Cafes here in Australia! They offer similar benefits to a good sized Starbucks store. Free charging points, WiFi, bench seating in secluded corners and so on. Though I'd wager that WiFi is less important, as people have mobile plans with plenty of data. Given the accommodation crises in Australia, I'd suspect many students dont have a decent place to study in their homes. Man…

In the UK, the IKEA Restaurant offers free hot drinks for IKEA Family members on weekdays - plus all of the other benefits you've mentioned.

I would say that the Wi-Fi is important, as the design of most UK IKEA buildings blocks mobile network signals!

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#63

Post by riehwvfbk »

nine_k wrote: post #22
s1artibartfast wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locally owned coffee shop is optimizing profits too, just going after a smaller, more niche demographic. Inversely, if everyone wanted cozy shops, that is exactly what Starbucks would build.

Everyone may be wanting cozy shops, large apartments, free ice cream, and a pony. Cozy shops bring in much less profit per $ invested. They cannot seriously compete with kiosks, when the majority of customers just want some competently brewed joe on the way to work (or even half-competently, since we mention Starbucks). Maybe a bagel with it. Next customer! A cozy shop with seating for customers who want to sit there…

To deal with this, Europe has "anticafes" that charge for time spent by the hour and offer unlimited free coffee (hence the "anti" part).

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#64

Post by shiroiushi »

nine_k wrote: post #22
s1artibartfast wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locally owned coffee shop is optimizing profits too, just going after a smaller, more niche demographic. Inversely, if everyone wanted cozy shops, that is exactly what Starbucks would build.

Everyone may be wanting cozy shops, large apartments, free ice cream, and a pony. Cozy shops bring in much less profit per $ invested. They cannot seriously compete with kiosks, when the majority of customers just want some competently brewed joe on the way to work (or even half-competently, since we mention Starbucks). Maybe a bagel with it. Next customer! A cozy shop with seating for customers who want to sit there…

If commercial real estate is cheap enough, an efficient business chain absolutely can do well with a cozy shop. A lot of people don't want a kiosk, and will simply skip it, but will go to a place if it's a cozy shop. Maybe this isn't so popular in modern America these days, but it is in many other places. Here in Tokyo where land prices are huge, all the Starbucks I've seen are still cozy shops, though they do tend to get rather crowded. I don't think a kiosk would work here at all; you can't bring coffee drinks on the train and eating on the sidewalk is rude. But Starbucks is immensely popular and always has a line (along with competing shops like Tully's).

So either Americans just don't care much about cozy shops any more, or American commercial real estate rent is too expensive, or some combination of the two are making it unprofitable to have a cozy coffee shop in American cities these days.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#65

Post by nine_k »

riehwvfbk wrote: post #63
nine_k wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone may be wanting cozy shops, large apartments, free ice cream, and a pony. Cozy shops bring in much less profit per $ invested. They cannot seriously compete with kiosks, when the majority of customers just want some competently brewed joe on the way to work (or even half-competently, since we mention Starbucks). Maybe a bagel with it. Next customer! A cozy shop with seating for customers who want to sit there…

To deal with this, Europe has "anticafes" that charge for time spent by the hour and offer unlimited free coffee (hence the "anti" part).

Ah, sounds a bit like that specific North American word... coworking? :)

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#66

Post by riehwvfbk »

nine_k wrote: post #65
riehwvfbk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To deal with this, Europe has "anticafes" that charge for time spent by the hour and offer unlimited free coffee (hence the "anti" part).

Ah, sounds a bit like that specific North American word... coworking? :)

That word also gets used, somewhat interchangeably (an anticafe will often also mention the word "coworking" in its description, but never the other way around).

Coworking places tend to be more like offices with some startups renting permanent spaces and some people dropping in for a day of work. They tend to have real desks and phone booths. Anticafes tend to be more like community spaces with cafe seating, board games galore, and maybe some cats. Both are filled with people on their laptops :)

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#67

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

trollbridge wrote: post #8

Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place. My partner finished up a medical appointment and was waiting for me to arrive, and decided to stop in Starbucks. Oops, just a kiosk. The options left for a “third place” was a petrol station that had seating and a grocery store. Somehow I don’t think petrol station seating areas will promotin…

I've been protesting the loss of starbucks seating in my grocery store by just making some seating out of whatever product is on display at that time. I haven't run into any entrepreneurs yet, but the community is amused.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#68

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

jmyeet wrote: post #15

What I don't see in these conversations is how much increasing property prices contribute to killing third places. People get excited because they bought a house for $200k and it's notionally worth $800k now. In reality they haven't gained anything because every house is $800k and you still need somewhere to live so you still only own one housing unit of wealth. Worse, people actively lobby for policies that increase…

...and one day, a younger generation is going to say "enough" because they'll have no other choice. I'm not sure what they'll do, but it probably wont involve respecting the abstractions that we've been basing our retirement savings on.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#69

Post by nine_k »

shermantanktop wrote: post #29
65 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the location and competition from other local businesses. The Starbucks where my parents live is nice to sit down and have a conversation with someone - it's bigger and has more space. Why? It's a small town and there isn't much competition from other local coffee shops. Compare that with the Starbucks's of Manhattan - usually very cramped, little seating, and meant to be more of a "to go" place than a…

I’d assume that the extreme difference in rent is a bigger factor than the amount of competition.

They are connected. More shops (including coffee shops) compete for the relatively well-off public walking around Manhattan, so they compete by agreeing to a higher rent, too. If you can't afford $50 / sq.ft., a few other bidders may.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#70

Post by nine_k »

riehwvfbk wrote: post #66
nine_k wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, sounds a bit like that specific North American word... coworking? :)

That word also gets used, somewhat interchangeably (an anticafe will often also mention the word "coworking" in its description, but never the other way around). Coworking places tend to be more like offices with some startups renting permanent spaces and some people dropping in for a day of work. They tend to have real desks and phone booths. Anticafes tend to be more like community spaces with cafe seating, board g…

Cats! It's a stroke of genius in changing the atmosphere.

A small coworking space closest to me is pretty informal, has tables, not desks, but you should bring your own coffee. If they had a cat, it would definitely be an extra attraction.

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