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Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

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Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#11

Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place. My partner finished up a medical appointment and was waiting for me to arrive, and decided to stop in Starbucks. Oops, just a kiosk. The options left for a “third place” was a petrol station that had seating and a grocery store. Somehow I don’t think petrol station seating areas will promotin…

At this point, I feel like that kind of thing is an obvious consequence of, among other issues, most of the US going straight to "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" when it comes to mental health issues and the homeless.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#12
I've noticed students working in the IKEA Cafes here in Australia!

They offer similar benefits to a good sized Starbucks store.

Free charging points, WiFi, bench seating in secluded corners and so on.

Though I'd wager that WiFi is less important, as people have mobile plans with plenty of data.

Given the accommodation crises in Australia, I'd suspect many students dont have a decent place to study in their homes. Many of them are sharing bedrooms etc..

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#14

Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place. My partner finished up a medical appointment and was waiting for me to arrive, and decided to stop in Starbucks. Oops, just a kiosk. The options left for a “third place” was a petrol station that had seating and a grocery store. Somehow I don’t think petrol station seating areas will promotin…

> I don’t need a kiosk; I have an espresso machine I can operate at home or in the office. You would probably enjoy the experience of a small, locally owned coffee shop then. Starbucks is optimizing for their profit. In my suburban city, Starbucks has closed most or all locations that were a few miles from the freeway. They built new locations with drive throughs and very little to no seating within a few blocks of e…

The locally owned coffee shop is optimizing profits too, just going after a smaller, more niche demographic.

Inversely, if everyone wanted cozy shops, that is exactly what Starbucks would build.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#15
What I don't see in these conversations is how much increasing property prices contribute to killing third places.

People get excited because they bought a house for $200k and it's notionally worth $800k now. In reality they haven't gained anything because every house is $800k and you still need somewhere to live so you still only own one housing unit of wealth.

Worse, people actively lobby for policies that increase housing prices.

But if this house is worth $600k more where is that money coming from? It's coming from the next generation who has to pay substantially more for the same house. It's a wealth transfer from the young to the old.

How does this relate to third places? Well, imagine a neighbourhood cafe. 20 years ago that cafe space might cost $200k and have a commercial rent yield of, say, 5% so it would cost $10k/year in rent for argument's sake. Well, all property has gone up in value so that cafe's space is now valued at $800k. It still demands a 5% yield so that's now $40k/year. All the cafe's customers have to pay for that with increased prices.

So with increases in housing costs, people have less money to spend and that money doesn't go as far. At a certain point, volume goes down and the business has to either close or raise prices, further exacerbating the problem.

Rising housing costs are strangling every aspect of society.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#16

Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place. My partner finished up a medical appointment and was waiting for me to arrive, and decided to stop in Starbucks. Oops, just a kiosk. The options left for a “third place” was a petrol station that had seating and a grocery store. Somehow I don’t think petrol station seating areas will promotin…

> I don’t need a kiosk; I have an espresso machine I can operate at home or in the office. You would probably enjoy the experience of a small, locally owned coffee shop then. Starbucks is optimizing for their profit. In my suburban city, Starbucks has closed most or all locations that were a few miles from the freeway. They built new locations with drive throughs and very little to no seating within a few blocks of e…

In LA, every small locally owned coffee shop has become totally overrun with folks buying one latte and proceeding to take a whole table to themselves and their laptops for the next 5 hours.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#17
This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station.

On the other hand, my area has a few excellent locally owned options that are so important to me. When I think about Starbucks vs. one of those locally owned shops, it reminds me just how much a rich tapestry of small businesses in a neighborhood can transform it for the better. Starbucks had that going for a it for a short while.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#18
post #6

Or alternately, neighborhoods with no previous coffee shops where Starbucks start opening are gentrifying.

That was my first thought, too, but that's not totally ignored. It all hinges on this part: "...when compared to census tracts that were scheduled to receive a Starbucks but did not do so..." So the sampled population is the neighborhoods that were scheduled to receive a Starbucks, and lack prior other coffeeshops. Which means we're basically only looking a newly gentrifying neighborhoods (that Starbucks has calculat…

To me, the "compared to census tracts that were scheduled to receive a Starbucks but did not do so..." is a weak défense against the correlation argument.

Like you said, without knowing the why of the change in plans, there is no way to judge causality confidently.

Anecdotally, I love these types of cafes (not "Starbucks" but this model), hope we get more, and see huge benefit both for myself and the community.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#20
post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It seems like everyone's experience is highly localised. Even within 3km of my place I have 4 starbucks. 1 is amazing, 2 are not great, and 1 is the takeaway variant. Which one is the true measure of "Starbucks"? It's the same for local cafes too.

Also what's with the "they just want to make a profit" argument going round here? Why wouldn't they? They literally have a legal duty to do so. Should we instead incentivise cafes to not make a profit?

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