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Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

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Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#21

Post by 65 »

kbos87 wrote: post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It depends on the location and competition from other local businesses.

The Starbucks where my parents live is nice to sit down and have a conversation with someone - it's bigger and has more space. Why? It's a small town and there isn't much competition from other local coffee shops.

Compare that with the Starbucks's of Manhattan - usually very cramped, little seating, and meant to be more of a "to go" place than a place to sit down.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#22

Post by nine_k »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #14
lotsoweiners wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t need a kiosk; I have an espresso machine I can operate at home or in the office. You would probably enjoy the experience of a small, locally owned coffee shop then. Starbucks is optimizing for their profit. In my suburban city, Starbucks has closed most or all locations that were a few miles from the freeway. They built new locations with drive throughs and very little to no seating within a few blocks of e…

The locally owned coffee shop is optimizing profits too, just going after a smaller, more niche demographic. Inversely, if everyone wanted cozy shops, that is exactly what Starbucks would build.

Everyone may be wanting cozy shops, large apartments, free ice cream, and a pony.

Cozy shops bring in much less profit per $ invested. They cannot seriously compete with kiosks, when the majority of customers just want some competently brewed joe on the way to work (or even half-competently, since we mention Starbucks). Maybe a bagel with it. Next customer!

A cozy shop with seating for customers who want to sit there and talk for an hour over a $3 cup of coffee each, cannot compete. It can maybe run as a lifestyle business by somebody who loves the craft and does not need much money. But not as an efficient business chain.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#23

Post by Animats »

trollbridge wrote: post #8

Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place. My partner finished up a medical appointment and was waiting for me to arrive, and decided to stop in Starbucks. Oops, just a kiosk. The options left for a “third place” was a petrol station that had seating and a grocery store. Somehow I don’t think petrol station seating areas will promotin…

> Unfortunately, Starbucks is opening “kiosk only” locations with no seating that, obviously, fail to function as a third place.

And when they convert an existing location to kiosk only, the prices do not go down.

There are two Starbucks locations in downtown Redwood City, about 250m apart. The one on the right side of the tracks has comfortable seating and tables. The one on the wrong side of the tracks, in the dying mall near the homeless camp, is kiosk only. Same prices.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#24

Post by ec109685 »

jmyeet wrote: post #15

What I don't see in these conversations is how much increasing property prices contribute to killing third places. People get excited because they bought a house for $200k and it's notionally worth $800k now. In reality they haven't gained anything because every house is $800k and you still need somewhere to live so you still only own one housing unit of wealth. Worse, people actively lobby for policies that increase…

That $200k purchaser is sitting on $760k in equity and paying 1/4th in housing that their peers are, which is its own form of wealth.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#25

Post by davemp »

willsmith72 wrote: post #20
kbos87 wrote: post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It seems like everyone's experience is highly localised. Even within 3km of my place I have 4 starbucks. 1 is amazing, 2 are not great, and 1 is the takeaway variant. Which one is the true measure of "Starbucks"? It's the same for local cafes too. Also what's with the "they just want to make a profit" argument going round here? Why wouldn't they? They literally have a legal duty to do so. Should we instead incentivis…

> they just want to make a profit

I think the “just” is the key word here. No one is going to get up in arms over modest profits. It’s the chasing growth at all costs even when it means sacrificing what should be the core value(s) of the business.

A lot of franchises just end up as soulless real-estate/marketing plays that siphon money out of local economies and compete on axis other than actual value/quality.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#26

Post by ipaddr »

willsmith72 wrote: post #20
kbos87 wrote: post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It seems like everyone's experience is highly localised. Even within 3km of my place I have 4 starbucks. 1 is amazing, 2 are not great, and 1 is the takeaway variant. Which one is the true measure of "Starbucks"? It's the same for local cafes too. Also what's with the "they just want to make a profit" argument going round here? Why wouldn't they? They literally have a legal duty to do so. Should we instead incentivis…

That's a great way to go out of business. Just make a profit driven companies don't invest in the companies future.

Starbucks had a vision now it looks to maximize short term profits while playing a real estate game.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#28

Post by ETHisso2017 »

willsmith72 wrote: post #20
kbos87 wrote: post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It seems like everyone's experience is highly localised. Even within 3km of my place I have 4 starbucks. 1 is amazing, 2 are not great, and 1 is the takeaway variant. Which one is the true measure of "Starbucks"? It's the same for local cafes too. Also what's with the "they just want to make a profit" argument going round here? Why wouldn't they? They literally have a legal duty to do so. Should we instead incentivis…

Sounds like they need to split up the brand. Customers need to have a consistent experience across locations

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#29

Post by shermantanktop »

65 wrote: post #21
kbos87 wrote: post #17

This is an aside, but my how far has Starbucks fallen at the hands of profit optimization. A Starbucks used to be a great place to spend time. Today the interior of almost every Starbucks is cold, beat up, and (intentionally?) uncomfortable. (In the stores where they even still have seating, which another commenter pointed out.) The quality of the product is barely a step above a gas station. On the other hand, my ar…

It depends on the location and competition from other local businesses. The Starbucks where my parents live is nice to sit down and have a conversation with someone - it's bigger and has more space. Why? It's a small town and there isn't much competition from other local coffee shops. Compare that with the Starbucks's of Manhattan - usually very cramped, little seating, and meant to be more of a "to go" place than a…

I’d assume that the extreme difference in rent is a bigger factor than the amount of competition.

Re: Third Places and Neighborhood Entrepreneurship: Evidence from Starbucks Cafés

#30

Post by griftrejection »

explaininjs wrote: post #16
lotsoweiners wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t need a kiosk; I have an espresso machine I can operate at home or in the office. You would probably enjoy the experience of a small, locally owned coffee shop then. Starbucks is optimizing for their profit. In my suburban city, Starbucks has closed most or all locations that were a few miles from the freeway. They built new locations with drive throughs and very little to no seating within a few blocks of e…

In LA, every small locally owned coffee shop has become totally overrun with folks buying one latte and proceeding to take a whole table to themselves and their laptops for the next 5 hours.

Are the owners not enforcing time limits or drink minimums?
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