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Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

electrek.co

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Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#61

Post by burkaman »

pkulak wrote: post #33
daoboy wrote: post #12

Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?

https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-car... The takeaway is that any analysis that suggests gas cars are better, at the very least, assumes that gasoline exists in pools just under gas stations. But gas is mined, just like lithium, and gas cars require 100s of tonnes, instead of 100s of pounds.

Also, gas is single use, but lithium and cobalt are infinitely recyclable. When you calculate the environmental cost of producing your EV's battery, it's not really appropriate to assign all of that to just one car, because a lot of it will get recycled.

This is the best argument I can think of when people start to talk about how awful lithium mining is for the planet. Yes, it does genuinely suck that we have to dig these giant holes in the ground, but at least when we find what we're looking for we don't ship it across the world and then literally set it on fire.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#62

Post by Scoundreller »

goles wrote: post #46
macNchz wrote: post #10

A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

It’s NYC. There’s going to be an underground gas distribution that fills that gap.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#63

Post by juhanakristian »

ada1981 wrote: post #34

Someone remind me again on the stats of battery toxicity and pollution vs fossil fuels? Also, is all of Norway energy produced by wind or solar? Or does this just move the tail pipe and introduce more toxic battery waste?

Interestingly 90% of energy in Norway is produced with hydro and the rest is mostly wind power

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#64

Post by ben_w »

goles wrote: post #46
macNchz wrote: post #10

A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

"""The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.""" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#65

Post by TheRealPomax »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #37
TheRealPomax wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you have to drive 15 minutes there and 15 minutes back, that's not faster than a fast-charge top-up at the fast charge point down the street, though. There's a critical density below which if you have a charge point nearby the nuisance of "going out for gas" and not being able to do anything else during that time isn't worth it compared to plugging in your car, and then just walking away for an hour. Especially if…

I don't think most people make a special trip just to get gas. It's usually a quick added stop along the way of another trip, which is less of a nuisance than having to make two small walks to move and plug/unplug your car.

And in those cases plugging in your EV amounts to no net gain or loss, but there absolutely are people who already have to make a dedicated trip to the gas station because their own town where they do their shopping simply doesn't have one.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#66

Post by TheRealPomax »

nucleardog wrote: post #47
TheRealPomax wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you have to drive 15 minutes there and 15 minutes back, that's not faster than a fast-charge top-up at the fast charge point down the street, though. There's a critical density below which if you have a charge point nearby the nuisance of "going out for gas" and not being able to do anything else during that time isn't worth it compared to plugging in your car, and then just walking away for an hour. Especially if…

I don’t know anyone that often drives somewhere specifically to get gas. As long as you occasionally drive past a gas station during your travels you just stop in for 3-5 minutes and fill the car up. Even if there isn’t one directly on your route, we’re talking a long ways off I think that you need to travel 15 or minutes from every point of your trip to each a gas station. Like, we've reached such a low density that…

Time to move to the country side. Discover a whole new aspect of "...so you're saying I can get basic groceries in town, but gas is 15 minutes further in the opposite direction of where I live?".

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#68

Post by lazide »

titzer wrote: post #36
gohigh54 wrote: post #32

30-40+/-% of refined oil is gasoline. So if you need to refine oil for jet fuel, heating oil, plastics, pavement and/or the 100s of other products we use everyday, then you are stuck with gasoline. Need to solve the 100s of other equally significant challenges as well.

So it's surplus and we have a problem if we don't use it now? That can't be a serious argument. They'd have to start paying us to use this annoying byproduct of throwaway materials? Something sounds fishy with that argument.

In most places, Gasoline is already cheaper than milk, for instance.

Most people just don’t buy 20+ gallons of milk at a time.

Propane has gotten down to $3.30/gal in the US West.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#69

Post by Scoundreller »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #9
exar0815 wrote: post #6

Well, in the larger metropolitan regions (Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim), where probably 2/3 of Norwegians live, you see a majority of electrics or at least hybrids. When you get further North, that diminishes. From Lofoten to Tromsø, you see more and more petrol or diesel. And heavier vehicles. The automotive culture there starkly reminded me of Iceland.

It's not so much the automotive culture, but backbreaking taxes on ICE vehicles, and basically no alternatives if you live in rural areas and have to drive long distances. Maybe someone from norway can calculate/check how much a mid-range petrol/diesel car (eg. VW golf, renault megane,...) costs there after all the taxes, and compare to an electric one, but it's a LOT more than in eg. germany.

Assuming the taxes are just on first-hand sales, the subsidies on new EVs probably flooded the rural regions with cheaper-than-expected 2nd-hand ICE vehicles.

Obvs the market for newer 2nd-hand ICE vehicles is going to wash away.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#70

Post by jncfhnb »

goles wrote: post #46
macNchz wrote: post #10

A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

I think it’s more troubling to view owning a car as a base right that everyone should have. It’s better as a luxury. We want fewer cars and for people to live in walkable areas where cars are not needed.
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