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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#61

Post by alextgordon »

rmc wrote: post #30
vasco wrote: post #5

I think this would never happen where I live. Honestly this seems like its the same thing as you guys in the US not being able to say merry christmas because it might offend someone. What's so wrong with being offended anyway? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs&t=3m30s I think people over there just take everything to seriously.

Basically you're saying "Lighten up". There is a problem of gender representation in tech. We need to do something about it.

Basically he's saying that definitions of sexism vary across cultures, and that where he lives (and where I live), this would not be considered sexist. "Two countries separated by a common language"

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#62

Post by pyre »

hythloday wrote: post #27
oskarth wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find the most fascinating is that she did everything exactly right and people still feel like she did something wrong. She didn't go to her supervisor and she didn't turn it into a drama. Instead she fought the problem in its own arena by making a IRC-bot to combat the problem, and not only that: the IRC-bot is only selectively used in the exact situation that is seen as problematic and it does so by writing e…

Yeah, unfortunately, if there is a gender stereotype to these kinds of conversations, it's that invariably there will be a response from a man saying "you did it wrong", regardless of the particular action the woman took. c.f. "She should have talked to her supervisor" here to "she should have made a witty come-back to the guy directly" to the guy with a low-cut sense of appropriateness.

Is the difference between those solutions really just because she's a woman? I'd like to believe that they are just differences of opinion on the best way to deal with issues. Some people prefer to appeal to authority, while others feel it's better handled by routing around authority and 'handling it yourself.' Depending on what she did, she would be criticized by one group or the other.

On the other hand, since this is an issue of sexism, I think that people put on their 'this is a serious discussion' hats which tend to make them more hypercritical than at other times.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#63

Post by hythloday »

olalonde wrote: post #54

I have noticed an interesting double standard on HN: while working in porn is perfectly fine, saying TWSS jokes is sexist because it objectivizes women as sexual objects.

There's a lot of disagreement as to whether porn is "anti-feminist". The school of thought that says it isn't stresses the importance of female agency (that it's up to the porn actors to decide where they work). I don't see any agency in appearing in a "that's what she said" joke, so I'm afraid I don't see the double standard.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#64

Post by DanBC »

unalone wrote: post #28
oskarth wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find the most fascinating is that she did everything exactly right and people still feel like she did something wrong. She didn't go to her supervisor and she didn't turn it into a drama. Instead she fought the problem in its own arena by making a IRC-bot to combat the problem, and not only that: the IRC-bot is only selectively used in the exact situation that is seen as problematic and it does so by writing e…

Really? What do you want? We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave, because it's rude to tell people there's something innately wrong with their behavior. Also it takes so much time and effort on our parts to try and behave like better people that it hardly seems like we should bother. The problem, for many people, is not that the issue is being handled indelicately. It's…

I have a neuro-atypicality that makes it very hard to tell when people do not literally mean what they say. That atypicality is shared by many programmers.

I hope that you do not receive many mistaken down votes from people who mis-understand your comments!

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#65

Post by marvin »

rmc wrote: post #35
CompiledCode wrote: post #21

So how can I write a bot to fight the sexism in Microsoft's TV ads? You know the ones... where the husband is the bumbling idiot and the wife is the smart capable one who shuts down his plea to play golf on Sundays. I would love to set that bot loose on all TV shows and ads. So often, a flipped situation would cause outrage of being sexist, whereas if the man is put down, it's "funny." It really bothers me, especiall…

Yes, ads (etc.) that portray people as bad based on their gender are wrong. However men are still in an advantageous position. widespread anti-male laws They are small in number compared to the widespread anti-female laws and customs.

There's no need to dismiss CompiledCode's point. The things he is pointing out are very real problems which affect men as a gender, without regard to the specific person. There is real sex discrimination against men going on, particularly in the US (I'm from Europe).

The best response to sexism isn't to turn the discussion into an antagonistic debate with men vs. women. Both sides have legitimate issues which need to be addressed if we are ever going to have real gender equality.

So my response would be that, yes, these things are all problems. And we need to address them separately, without dismissing any legitimate complaints from either side.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#66

Post by notbitter »

hythloday wrote: post #16

"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he real…

This is human nature, not specific to geeks or men. If you call somebody on their bullshit you have to expect some blowback, even if you do it as tactfully as Jessamyn did in this case.

What's sad is that one of the guys on the team could have fixed this with much less awkwardness, but apparently none of them stepped up.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#67

Post by neutronicus »

unalone wrote: post #42
jasonlotito wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave... > As you can see I've got perfectly rational explanations for why I'm so irritated by women calling out sexist behaviors. > I want them to stop calling things sexist so that I can stop worrying about their feelings. > I just thought it was funny that Dave said something that sounds like sex talk, and wanted all of you to know!…

I was worried about people thinking I meant what I said when I wrote it. Then I decided that maybe the fact that people could theoretically take it seriously was a good reason to keep it how it was.

> I was worried about people thinking I meant what I said when I wrote it.

"Calling Out" is a pretty recognizable piece of social-justice cant. I think other social-justice types will probably pick up on it immediately.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#68

Post by hobin »

unalone wrote: post #42
jasonlotito wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave... > As you can see I've got perfectly rational explanations for why I'm so irritated by women calling out sexist behaviors. > I want them to stop calling things sexist so that I can stop worrying about their feelings. > I just thought it was funny that Dave said something that sounds like sex talk, and wanted all of you to know!…

I was worried about people thinking I meant what I said when I wrote it. Then I decided that maybe the fact that people could theoretically take it seriously was a good reason to keep it how it was.

I thought you meant it. Then I realized I was on HN, and I got confused. Thank you for clarifying, anyway. ;)

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#69

Post by DanBC »

Strallus wrote: post #60
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in…

That's a little bit hetero normative.

About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often.

She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#70

Post by peteretep »

Strallus wrote: post #60
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in…

I think trying to read more in to this than "there are many cylindrical and spherical items in this world of ours" is reaching a little...
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