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How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

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Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#61

The whole tirade on rigorous proofs and colonial mindset puzzles me. From my understanding (I am European ...), rigorous proofs were increasingly seen as a need because as things like calculus progressed, any loose definition had a tendency to become a minefield. Think of the definition of derivatives, continuity. Also, at a time where things were getting mechanize because we could and it was a gain, it was natural t…

I've just finished reading Feyerabend's Tyranny of Science which goes down a very similar path to OP's interview: >In this wide-ranging and accessible book Feyerabend challenges some modern myths about science, including the myth that ‘science is successful’. He argues that some very basic assumptions about science are simply false and that substantial parts of scientific ideology were created on the basis of superfi…

But do "we" really ignore the tacit knowledge? I think you are wrong that "scientific literature" pretends those things.

The issue of "context of discovery" vs "context of justification" is a hundred years old. And modern accounts of measurement and modeling make it quite clear that there is much more going on than simply writing down numbers. Theories/hypotheses can come from anywhere, I don't think that is even disputed.

However, when doing science, maths, engineering, the question is often what people are even saying, and what counts as evidence that something works. You cannnot do this without abstractions, and at some point we'll have to agree what those abstractions are. Should we leave it to individual experience if LK-99 is a superconductor?

You don't need formal maths training to raise a barn or build a kayak because there is brutal feedback if you are wrong. You'll need maths training to learn how to be right about things that will not give you any feedback.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be a minority. Won't help if you're Asian IMO.

I meant a minority w.r.t. to the current distribution in math.

I’ve found the word “underrepresented” works a little better in this context to avoid misunderstandings.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#63

I appreciated Eugenia Cheng's youtube lectures on category theory and I know interviews aren't the best format for sustained exposition, but the remark about mathematical rigor being a European colonialist thing seemed pretty forced. If anything, it underestimates the strangeness of the history of math in an effort to cram it into a simple frame: "Europeans bad". There was something distinctive about work in foundati…

I've talked about this in a replay to another comment, but I don't think she's making any value judgment in the article, or (at least in the article) actually articulating any claim about colonialism and mathematics. In fact, I don't even think she's saying "Europeans bad": We might marvel at, say, Amish people raising a barn or Inuit people building a kayak without any European formal maths training. We might declar…

I think that if I were being interviewed and my interviewer said "you also discuss how colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics?", but I didn't think that colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics, I would say: "What? I don't think colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics at all."

Rather than insinuating that Europe must have stolen math from other parts of the world and pawned it off as its own, or been really mean about rigor, or whatever.

There were several totalizing ideologies in the 20th century that attempted to make all of human affairs about themselves: everything from literature to science to birdwatching had some sort of party line: Did this literature say the right things? Was this science done by the right kind of scientist? Is this bird the right kind of bird to be watching? Judging by their results, I wouldn't look forward to a do-over of that line of thinking.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#64

I have a PhD in math, did some successful research, but left math for a variety of personal reasons. My advice: 1. Network, network, network. Get famous or established mathematicians interested in your work. 2. Be a minority. Due to the prevailing ideology of academia, it's much easier to be successful if you are a minority. (I am not saying it doesn't take hard work, but the competition is not as extreme due to inte…

> Equity rules make this point an incontrovertible fact

Seems like flawed reasoning to me. If a group as a whole is underrepresented in a highly competitive environment like academia, then presumably they have a harder time getting in or staying in.

Despite equity measures, whites in the us are not underrepresented. It follows that it is not harder for whites, but still more difficult specifically for black and Latino people to make it in academia, no?

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've talked about this in a replay to another comment, but I don't think she's making any value judgment in the article, or (at least in the article) actually articulating any claim about colonialism and mathematics. In fact, I don't even think she's saying "Europeans bad": We might marvel at, say, Amish people raising a barn or Inuit people building a kayak without any European formal maths training. We might declar…

I think that if I were being interviewed and my interviewer said "you also discuss how colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics?", but I didn't think that colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics, I would say: "What? I don't think colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics at all." Rather than insinuating that Europe must have stolen math from other parts of the world and pawne…

I think that's our disagreement: I think you can say, "maybe there's some relationship between what we have seen as colonialism and academic mathematics", without even thinking that it was about "stealing math", or thinking about colonialism determined everything about mathematics in some totalizing way.

I'm sorry if I come off as a little obtuse, so I might as well say what I'm really thinking. My thinking leans towards Eugenia's, and it's a lot more conservative: the question itself is worth thinking about, but it's a lot to think through, and the link may as well be tenuous. But, in my thinking, if NATO once funded pure mathematics (as Grothendieck once protested against), if DARPA also currently funds pure mathematics, then it is worth asking what historical narrative explains it, and whether it applies to the slightly more distant past, too.

Above all I don't believe that the academic enterprise has ever been a neutral and disinterested endeavor, either – it's a lot of public money, and wherever there's public money politics comes before or after. I don't think that's a totalizing way of understanding academia.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#66

I have a PhD in math, did some successful research, but left math for a variety of personal reasons. My advice: 1. Network, network, network. Get famous or established mathematicians interested in your work. 2. Be a minority. Due to the prevailing ideology of academia, it's much easier to be successful if you are a minority. (I am not saying it doesn't take hard work, but the competition is not as extreme due to inte…

> Equity rules make this point an incontrovertible fact Seems like flawed reasoning to me. If a group as a whole is underrepresented in a highly competitive environment like academia, then presumably they have a harder time getting in or staying in. Despite equity measures, whites in the us are not underrepresented. It follows that it is not harder for whites, but still more difficult specifically for black and Latin…

> If a group as a whole is underrepresented in a highly competitive environment like academia, then presumably they have a harder time getting in or staying in.

No, that is fallacious. It could also mean that fewer members of that group try to get in in the first place. That is because there are multiple stages to getting into academia. But the question I was referring to was about the final stage: getting into research math, and then minorities are already under-represented in the pool of people thinking about becoming a research mathematician.

To put it simply, IF a person is a minority and is already in grad school, they will have an easier time going further simply because of equity hiring. That's all I meant.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#67

I have a PhD in math, did some successful research, but left math for a variety of personal reasons. My advice: 1. Network, network, network. Get famous or established mathematicians interested in your work. 2. Be a minority. Due to the prevailing ideology of academia, it's much easier to be successful if you are a minority. (I am not saying it doesn't take hard work, but the competition is not as extreme due to inte…

I'm curious: what field did you work in? One of my reasons for not pursuing math was going to a summer undergrad research mentoring thing by a well-known-enough American algebraic topologist (the field that Eugenia works in), and finding out that even his students were having problem getting positions in higher ed in the US that weren't temporary – that was simply the state in general academia, with an ageing profess…

I worked in Langlands.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if I were being interviewed and my interviewer said "you also discuss how colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics?", but I didn't think that colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics, I would say: "What? I don't think colonialist ideology has influenced modern mathematics at all." Rather than insinuating that Europe must have stolen math from other parts of the world and pawne…

I think that's our disagreement: I think you can say, "maybe there's some relationship between what we have seen as colonialism and academic mathematics", without even thinking that it was about "stealing math", or thinking about colonialism determined everything about mathematics in some totalizing way. I'm sorry if I come off as a little obtuse, so I might as well say what I'm really thinking. My thinking leans tow…

Cheng talks a lot about colonialism inn _Is Maths Real_ but here is the closest thing to an argument for the claim that I could locate:

> “Now, at the same time as all this, it is true that mathematics as a field has grown carefully and rigorously according to a carefully constructed framework of logic and rigour. It is, arguably, the framework that is keeping some maths in and keeping some maths out. But... there are questions about the values built into the framework of mathematics. That framework is geared towards the principles of ‘progress’ and ‘development’. Deep down I have an uncomfortable suspicion that those principles are indelibly linked to colonialism, imperialism and the urge to conquer others.” (p. 320-1)

That's the argument in its entirety. What humanity was up to in the ten millennia of recorded history before formal mathematics is left unexplained.

The most parsimonious explanation for the military's funding of mathematics research is that mathematics often has applications to military technology. But even here, we have to be careful: it's typically applied math that's the most, well... applicable, which is precisely the sort of thing that pure mathematicians are supposed to look down upon as "not really math". (The pure math work at DARPA is AFAICT more a consequence of DARPA's idiosyncratic governance structure that gives program managers wide latitude to swing for the fences, accepting that there will be some strikeouts.)

But the fact that modern Western mathematics is indispensable for advanced engineering projects at all, in a way that Sanskrit prosody and Inuit kayak architecture are not, is pretty crucial to understanding the funding situation: it's funded because it's useful, not useful because it's funded. If we don't grant that math is actually unreasonably effective in explaining / predicting / manipulating the world then sure, what math gets funded looks like another courtly intrigue. But it seems that the unreasonable effectiveness is precisely what needs to be explained away on Cheng's view.

I'm all ears for the contrary view, but we've already written more on the topic than Cheng did in the entire book, which is light on argument and regrettably heavy on insinuation.

Re: How to be successful as a research mathematician? Follow your gut

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's our disagreement: I think you can say, "maybe there's some relationship between what we have seen as colonialism and academic mathematics", without even thinking that it was about "stealing math", or thinking about colonialism determined everything about mathematics in some totalizing way. I'm sorry if I come off as a little obtuse, so I might as well say what I'm really thinking. My thinking leans tow…

Cheng talks a lot about colonialism inn _Is Maths Real_ but here is the closest thing to an argument for the claim that I could locate: > “Now, at the same time as all this, it is true that mathematics as a field has grown carefully and rigorously according to a carefully constructed framework of logic and rigour. It is, arguably, the framework that is keeping some maths in and keeping some maths out. But... there ar…

I've just taken a look at the book as well – peeking at the index: colonialism, p49, pp164-76. I trust you; is it really not within those pages? I'm disappointed, too.

That being said, you're right –– this has gotten into a bit of a side track, and I'm not about to re-scour through the book to see precisely what argument she's making, and the level of generality she stated it, either! (My summer reading list is full.)

I wonder if Eugenia's comments should actually be a historical argument – that way, multiple explanations can co-exist on different levels, rather than trying to find the most parsimonous theory and excluding the rest. But I'm not about to find out, and, even then, I figure a good historical explanation does need at least a dissertation's worth of work and evidence :)

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