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Common Lisp: 2022 in review

lisp-journey.gitlab.io

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Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#61

Post by vindarel »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #59

This will take a while to read through! I have been using Common Lisp since 1982, love the language, but I have been drifting over to Python more in the last 8 years because of support for deep learning. That said, I think CL is the best research language.

then you'll be pleased to read that @digikar is advancing on fast Python FFI, or to discover numerical and scientific libraries.

> This will take a while to read through!

but much less than to write or to google, so lay back and enjoy each line ;)

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#62

Post by itsautomatisch »

dgan wrote: post #43
rchtwlm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I have no particular feelings for or against the JVM. It always surprises me when people get so passionate about runtimes - how much do you interact with them? They're just in the background doing their thing. I can see reasons for not wanting to use the JVM in specific cases. For example, it may not have the performance you want for the application you're developing. I'm just confounded by general statements su…

Why => because JVM is poor no fit for CLI, and is a poor fit for games. Those two fields in which I see myself using common-lisp. Unsure what's so wierd about it, everyone (most) knows about slow cold startup times, and inability to control memory layout in JVM. Also, horrible C bindings

I don't see how the JVM is a "poor fit for games" when it's entirely contextual towards the goals of the game itself. Garbage collection also does not automatically disqualify an environment from games development, and there are plenty of games made in garbage-collected languages out there by both hobbyists and professionals using frameworks like LibGDX and Monogame/FNA/XNA. Depending on the kind of game, sure, the JVM might not be the right choice (or a choice at all), but for most people they likely will be too busy trying to actually finish the game instead of tuning for performance.

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#63

Post by tmtvl »

vindarel wrote: post #60
tmtvl wrote: post #38

ACL2 gets mentioned in passing, but it may be worth noting that version 8.5 was released this year, with several new features and bug fixes: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/v8-5/combined-man...

excellent point, thanks. It's added. I mostly prepared the post with the reddit history, that means someone missed the opportunity to inform the broader Lisp community there. For Maxima, what could be added?

Maxima 5.46 came out (https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/master/tree/changel...) in April. It also had a number of bugfixes and some new features, personally I am fond of getting rid of the python dependency for building the documentation, but I suppose preventing gensyms from leaking and fixing limit going into an infinite loop may be considered more important by some.

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#64

Post by JonChesterfield »

rchtwlm wrote: post #25
dgan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea, but JVM is a show stopper for me :/

Why? I have no particular feelings for or against the JVM. It always surprises me when people get so passionate about runtimes - how much do you interact with them? They're just in the background doing their thing. I can see reasons for not wanting to use the JVM in specific cases. For example, it may not have the performance you want for the application you're developing. I'm just confounded by general statements su…

> Why? I have no particular feelings for or against the JVM. It always surprises me when people get so passionate about runtimes - how much do you interact with them? They're just in the background doing their thing.

I spent a day writing Clojure after watching a bunch of talks about it. Very keen on persistent data structures.

Every time I put a foot wrong it printed a Java stack trace for me, which was very large but told me nothing. I then went looking for the optimiser and discovered there wasn't one, it just falls through into the JVM JIT and hopes for the best. And finally it turned out a bunch of Clojure libraries were reskinned Java, and therefore likely to have the stereotypical properties of Java code. So that all seems directly attributable to the runtime.

Clojure the language is totally my sort of thing but that was such a horrendous experience that I haven't picked it up again in... what turns out to be seven years (found my stack overflow question about it).

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#65

Post by smcn »

lairv wrote: post #51
smcn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely. For context, we do stock market analysis but we approach it from the perspective of stock prices being entirely supply and demand, and we're looking for stocks which are about to receive a lot of new demand. We handle A LOT of data. Well, a lot for what we do, we're not exabyte scale yet. We use Postmodern for Postgres interaction. Have no complaints at all. You're able to use s-sql which is SQL stat…

I only started learning CL during last month advent of code, and it's incredible to know you can do so much with the language, thanks for the insights. As other have mentioned, you can count me in if you ever write a blog about the process

You're most welcome!

You'll want for nothing but the great thing about lisp, in my opinion, is that it's /so/ easy to create. A good article on this is The Lisp Curse[0], which argues that its power is a bad thing as it prevents communities from forming but as a developer, I want to use the best tools available. If that results in me, as a business owner, requiring less people then that's a win to me.

0: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#66

Post by kaveh808 »

Very flattered to see kons-9 mentioned.

It is wonderful to be back developing in CL after so many years. I hope 2023 will see a community of users grow around the system. I would love to see what uses people put it to.

That, after all, is why I started to project, combining my two favorite software things: Common Lisp and 3D graphics.

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#67

Post by kaveh808 »

qart wrote: post #45
smcn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was /that guy/ at my last place and I agree that it's not well received. Though once I was writing some lisp to fix a problem we were having and I had a developer beside me and he was blown away by what was happening. I think that the interactivity is something which must be experienced to be fully appreciated. I use it at my current start up and could not imagine using another language. I've become too used to thi…

> he was blown away by what was happening Could you recommend some videos of live development with CL that aren't for toy examples? I don't know any lisp, but I'd like to see how different it is from other semi-interactive programming languages like Matlab, Python, etc.

I made some videos of basic CL development. May be too "toy" for your needs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSJcuOLmkl8&list=PLTA6M4yZF0...

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#68

Post by kaveh808 »

sph wrote: post #46
noloblo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the interactivity that must be experienced to fully appreciate

A short video is more than a thousand words: https://youtu.be/tmKrF-QAcOk For a longer visual introduction, I have been enjoying kaveh808's videos: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTA6M4yZF0MzsMlNL0N67tIU1...

Thank you. Glad you are enjoying my videos.

This longer demo of an early version of kons-9 talks about some CL features:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJe4isZ7NHI&list=PLTA6M4yZF0...

Re: Common Lisp: 2022 in review

#70

Post by tmm84 »

kaveh808 wrote: post #66

Very flattered to see kons-9 mentioned. It is wonderful to be back developing in CL after so many years. I hope 2023 will see a community of users grow around the system. I would love to see what uses people put it to. That, after all, is why I started to project, combining my two favorite software things: Common Lisp and 3D graphics.

I likewise want to thank you for the great YouTube videos that you produced. Watching someone interact and do things in CL helps me to understand it better as someone who plays in Scheme/Racket on the weekends.
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