Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

medicalxpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 114 posts

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#61

Post by xavoy »

cmer wrote: post #56
xavoy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Zen is very western/scientific/rational. Most of the teachers in the lineage I belong to are also psychologists, psychotherapists or counselors (but your teacher is NOT your therapist). Stephen Bachelor has been a Tibetan AND a Zen monk, but is now neither. He wrote a book called "Buddhism Without Beliefs" which might suit you. Note though that it is almost impossible to separate meditation as it relates to y…

I was also about to purchase the book as well only to find out it is not available on the Kindle. I realized that I never actually read the paperbooks I buy so I figured I'd stop buying them altogether. Are you aware of great alternative book that might be available in digital format?

Unfortunately (I'm a kindle lover too!) the best books on Zen are either out of print completely or not available digitally :( Here's a couple of good lists thought:

http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,168&pageid=... http://szc.org.au/reading.html

Given the context of this discussion, I would recommend reading Charlotte Joko Beck's books. Specifically Nothing Special, which is available digitally on Amazon :)

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#62

Post by xavoy »

cmer wrote: post #59
xavoy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sit in a comfortable position, if possible on a cushion, on the floor, with three solid points of contact (your butt and your knees). Relax. Pay special attention to your shoulders, neck and throat. Straighten your back, let your stomach and butt hang out. Close your eyes 3/4 and let them go out of focus. Take a deep breath in and let it go. Then breath in again, counting 'one' to yourself, breath out and count 'two'…

This is harder than it seems! I couldn't go past 7 and barely lasted a minute. I got hyper and missed Hacker News :) I'm ready to go to bed now, but I'll try again tomorrow. I never thought trying to relax would feed so odd! Thanks again for the information.

Indeed :) I do orientations for friends and occasionally newcomers to the Zendo. I tell them if they can honestly get past five in the first few months they are doing well :)

Also, relaxing is good, but the practice is an attentive awareness of the breath and count. Too relaxed and you'll get sleepy and lose the count, trying too hard makes you tense physically and tires you out mentally. It's about finding that balance again and again and again. Just one. Just two. Just three.

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#63

Post by xavoy »

cmer wrote: post #48
xavoy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sit in a comfortable position, if possible on a cushion, on the floor, with three solid points of contact (your butt and your knees). Relax. Pay special attention to your shoulders, neck and throat. Straighten your back, let your stomach and butt hang out. Close your eyes 3/4 and let them go out of focus. Take a deep breath in and let it go. Then breath in again, counting 'one' to yourself, breath out and count 'two'…

Wow thanks so much for the information! This als0 goes to everybody who responded to this thread.

My pleasure :)

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#64

Post by asmala »

cmer wrote: post #54
rsaarelm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked Daniel Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha , online at http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml .

Sorry if this sounds clueless, but is that religious at all? I'm looking for something not religious since I am an atheist. Thanks!

The book is written by a Western MD and focuses heavily on results. It leans on the classical maps of the path of meditation from Burmese Theravada, a tradition that is about as stripped down and non-theistic as it gets. That said, the maps and some of the terms used may appear somewhat archaic to a modern reader.

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#65

Post by xavoy »

jessriedel wrote: post #44
xavoy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say we're half evolved. We have this facility and don't know how to properly control it. It's a byproduct of some other facility (the ability to communicate).

I don't see any link between (1) communication and (2) my mind wandering away from my immediate surroundings and settling on an outstanding problem I have. My mind could (and occasionally does) wander over a million other things in my brain (e.g. past memories, imagining the future, or the feel of my clothes on my body) but predominantly focuses on outstanding problems, so I tend to think this is a highly purposeful…

The ability to communicate as we humans do requires the ability to abstract, be removed from reality and ponder over it, so you can articulate your problems to others. The stories in your head are just that, except you haven't verbalized them yet.

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#66

Post by asmala »

jessriedel wrote: post #5

The real question is whether it's a good thing to stop "mind wandering" when it hasn't reached the level of disorder. From the perspective of evolution, it almost certainly has a purpose. Paul Graham pointed out that its probably useful for problem solving: http://www.paulgraham.com/top.html I wonder if it would be good to have the ability to better focus one's self when one's mind is wandering into unproductive subj…

I think we need to differentiate between different types of wandering here. I think we can agree that letting our minds roam looking for creative solutions and creative questions is a good think. But it's less useful to have our minds stuck in a loop ("Peanut butter or jam? PB or J?" ad infinitum).

Anecdotal evidence based on four years of active meditation would in my case seem to indicate that the jittery loopiness lessens while the capacity for creative wandering increases.

I would conjencture that our minds are over-stimulated and hence unable settle down to make room for the truly novel.

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#67

Post by ypcx »

[I'm sleepy so bear with me.] Meditation is extremely easy - for a while. I'm interested in it, I try to do it regularly, but it's not easy to return to it every day, or during a busy day. We see a news article about it, we talk about it, some of us will try it for a while, but in a month from now, all of us will be at the same point as right now - not doing it anymore. It's hard to stress how important is to practice regularly, as then it starts to be really effective. In my life, I'm returning to meditation in waves, in short periods of practice, but for some (possibly material, possibly immaterial) reason, I want more. My aim is to find a way how to meditate sustainably, with the least effort, and how to remind oneself every day that he should meditate. Mind you, I don't know if this is even viable, as sometimes your mind revolts, and when it does, it will (on the background) use your best intelligence and creativity to avoid the practice. I think that not even smartphone apps can help you in this regard. Speaking of which, so far I've seen two worth mentioning (I haven't tried them yet), this one for iPhone http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lotus-bud-meditation-timer/id... and this one for Android https://market.android.com/details?id=com.nwalex.meditation. But as I said, I'm not sure these can help in a long run. The problem is that as you keep practicing (internal-awareness) meditation regularly, it will change your external reality (a.k.a. your life) very profoundly, only making it harder to keep practicing every day. There's a lot more to write about this, I could go on and on for many more pages - distractions, formal vs informal, beating your daily energy deficiency, cheating the thought-switching mechanism that makes you day-dream during meditation, etc.. but I want to put this in a readable and practically usable form first, if that is possible at all. (Edit: oh, and it must be a very short form - if you write a book about meditation, then - I believe - you have already failed to deliver what matters, as in that case the reader will simply get satisfied/their energy depleted with the reading itself, and their focus moves to something else.)

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#68

Post by cmer »

xavoy wrote: post #61
cmer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also about to purchase the book as well only to find out it is not available on the Kindle. I realized that I never actually read the paperbooks I buy so I figured I'd stop buying them altogether. Are you aware of great alternative book that might be available in digital format?

Unfortunately (I'm a kindle lover too!) the best books on Zen are either out of print completely or not available digitally :( Here's a couple of good lists thought: http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,168&pageid=... http://szc.org.au/reading.html Given the context of this discussion, I would recommend reading Charlotte Joko Beck's books. Specifically Nothing Special, which is available digitally on Amazon :…

I caved and ended up buying BOTH Buddhism Without Beliefs and Nothing Special. I got Nothing Special for $4 (used/paperback) so I figured I'll just throw it in.

Looking forward to some reading!

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#69

Post by asmala »

cpeterso wrote: post #33
jessriedel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what evolutionary purpose do you think mind-wandering serves? We clearly tend to think about various current problems of ours (whether technical, social, or other) when our mind wanders; it's not an accident.

Perhaps a wandering mind was good enough for early hunter-gathers and only now do modern humans have specialized roles that require extreme focus? A hunter might benefit from a "wider" sense of awareness, whereas recent studies show that multitasking is counterproductive for mental tasks that require extreme focus.

I think this understanding of meditation is somewhat mistaken. The techniques of single-pointed focusing are there to help us learn how to keep our minds still, not to narrow down our field of awareness (although one might do so during a practice session).

In fact, in most Buddhist traditions, the development of stillness (shamatha) goes hand-in-hand with the development of a widening awareness (vipashyana). Modern traditions like the mindfulness movement also seem to incorporate this tandem approach.

Re: Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation

#70

Post by asmala »

VMG wrote: post #55
rsanheim wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via meditation goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself. But I'm interested in your startup anyway. :) edit: in fairness, there are many types of meditation beyond zen.

> Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via meditation goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself. The - excuse me - postmodern gobbledygook of some schools are is what has turned me off meditation again and again. I'd love to follow a rationalist, scientific school of meditation that has mind improvement as a goal.

In that case Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings on the Buddha might be a good place to start.

I think it's also important not to throw away the baby with the bath water; just because the techniques are explained in an archaic language and seemingly inseparable from a traditionalist cultural tradition, doesn't mean they do not produce results. Still probably a good idea to start with something easily approachable so you can start to discern what's effective and what's just cultural cargo culting.

Post reply on HN