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PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

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Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#61

Post by aroman »

zepto wrote: post #55
Freak_NL wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that it won't break the app-store duopoly. At what point will WhatsApp or even Signal consider providing a web-app, or even an open API for others to built clients against? Not doing this is a policy choice, not a technical one. Will banks offer something that doesn't require authentication via an app? Governments? App here meaning: Android or IOS. One solution might be to provide a sandbox for Android apps, b…

There is no reason it can’t break the ‘duopoly’. It clearly isn’t going to do so overnight or in a year or two. But it easily could over the 5-10 year timeline. A distributed App Store plus an experience that is more attuned to the needs of users than iOS or Android can accomplish that. To solve the ‘bank’ problem all it needs to do is provide a really solid PWA story. What it shouldn’t do is provide Android compatib…

> plus an experience that is more attuned to the needs of users than iOS or Android can accomplish that.

Why would this project be more effective at doing this than iOS or Android?

I don’t see why people other than ideological technologists would want to use this phone.

To be clear, I think it’d be great if they did, but I think you’re massively understating the difficulty of challenging iOS and Android. Many companies have tried before - Microsoft, Amazon, Canonical, and failed.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#62

Post by fsflover »

amelius wrote: post #58
danShumway wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already use Linux with my bank and when I'm interacting with my government. And unlike on Android, the barrier of entry for me to write apps and set up quick solutions to problems is much lower. I don't need to run my code on a completely separate environment with no overlap. Emulation is going to be easier. I don't need to install Eclipse or whatever the heck Android devs tolerate now. That's part of the point of…

To take one example: the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose? You probably need a special device for 2FA? In most bank apps, you can simply log in using a PIN-code and do things like check your balance, make small wire transfers, and make payments in stores through NFC. Doing these things in a web-browser on a mobile phone with a separate 2FA device is much more cumbersome. (I use Linux e…

> the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose?

Can also be done with Android app via Anbox: https://social.librem.one/@dos/105119691527269967

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#63

Post by oilbagz »

hyperpl wrote: post #46

I've had the pinephone from the start and while I've seen great progress in general in getting this closer to being a daily driver, I feel a lot of effort has been made getting various orthogonal distributions/stacks ported to this platform which I feel is fracturing the ecosystem. I'm by no means a mobile app developer but if I wanted to dabble in making a small app, I'd be confused which stack to use and which dist…

This is especially true of Pine's other interesting product, the PineWatch. There isn't a very clear path which of the many distributions that are available, is the right one to follow - Pine themselves don't seem to have any interest in setting up a canonical release asset that customers can follow, and I agree with you - this is fracturing the ecosystem.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#64

Post by fsflover »

josefresco wrote: post #59
fsflover wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the made-in-USA edition. How much alternative phones from the USA cost? Standard edition costs $800.

I get it, I'm all for it. Objectively, it's still a lot of money even for middle class Americans.

Such is the cost to produce electronics in America...

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#65

Post by squarefoot »

fsflover wrote: post #49
josefresco wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1999 woah https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5-usa/

This is the made-in-USA edition. How much alternative phones from the USA cost? Standard edition costs $800.

This is still 4 times more expensive than the biggest Pinephone, which of course is a lot more limited in computing power, memory, storage and other areas, but sometimes people just want the bare minimum to enter the world of open phones. I wonder what's the reason behind Purism ignoring the low end market completely.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#66

Post by amelius »

Freak_NL wrote: post #27
wwarner wrote: post #20

I personally think that the effort to create open source phones is the single most important technology project going on out there. We have open source browsers, we have open source social apps, but we definitely do not have open source phones. Phones that can be truly owned and controlled by users will reshape the privacy discourse, from one of complaining and legal coercion, to one of choices and markets.

Except that it won't break the app-store duopoly. At what point will WhatsApp or even Signal consider providing a web-app, or even an open API for others to built clients against? Not doing this is a policy choice, not a technical one. Will banks offer something that doesn't require authentication via an app? Governments? App here meaning: Android or IOS. One solution might be to provide a sandbox for Android apps, b…

If banks and governments keep writing apps only for the duopoly, then there is the argument that the duopoly becomes a public utility and should be opened up.

This view would also protect FOSS projects that emulate the iOS environment (e.g. Wine but for iOS)

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#67

Post by Freak_NL »

amelius wrote: post #45
linmob wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, it does not have to change the duopoly, as long as it creates sustainable options for those who want to escape that duopoly. In that way it‘s already a success.

The point was: if it doesn't change the duopoly then who will write apps for the open platform? Not banks. Not governments. They will keep on developing only for Android and iOS. And people with a pinephone will have a great phone with a great OS, but with a shitty selection of apps.

It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes.

For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter option is of course targetted at the infirm and elderly. People who are able, literate, and have computers with modern OSes on them at the ready, but not one of the two smartphone OSes are considered to be such a minority that they can be safely ignored until they fold and get a cheap Android device.

I don't have a smartphone with Android or IOS, and I get nudged constantly when using DigiD (on a laptop or desktop computer) to get the app for authentication. My bank also nudges me at every transaction (which I do on a desktop computer with a stand-alone card-reader they provide). I can't turn off the nudging or make the services remember my choice, and always have to perform an extra click to authenticate. The upcoming digital government law goes a step further and mandates a level of assurance that can currently only be met by the app for accessing your healthcare records. This is of course not required: you are also welcome to go to the healthcare provider in person and ask for you dossier on paper. And when you do so, you will be nudged at every step of the way to consider using their app.

If this is a pattern that occurs worldwide, then smartphones that do not offer these apps have a very limited audience, and will remain curiosities for tinkerers and privacy conscious folk willing to make the trade-off (or even have a separate Android phone for the stuff mentioned above, for each adult member of their household).

We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons (remember how South Korea was stuck with ActiveX way beyond its sell-by-date?), but now we're stuck here.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#68

Post by viro »

wwarner wrote: post #20

I personally think that the effort to create open source phones is the single most important technology project going on out there. We have open source browsers, we have open source social apps, but we definitely do not have open source phones. Phones that can be truly owned and controlled by users will reshape the privacy discourse, from one of complaining and legal coercion, to one of choices and markets.

I must really like down votes because "single most important technology project going on out there" is quite the stretch. Hell, I would argue that over the last year during a pandemic doordash was more important(feeding people while letting them be socially distanced). People on this site like overestimate the avg. persons concern with privacy. the hardware toggles are cool tho.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#69

Post by fsflover »

swiley wrote: post #52
Luker88 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last month they even managed to fully open parts of the modem, and do calls without the closed blob for the firmware! https://twitter.com/biktorgj/status/1357217053745250304 (edit: caveat: they might not be able to actually ship the firmware since laws on this are very strict basically everywhere) The app store(s) is a bit of a problem, but in time it might be solved. Not a big problem for me.... But I'd also like to…

I hope the pinephone never has app stores. The "work with the community to merge your software into the repo" model is much better for things that actually help people. Apple's AppStore is best for extracting money from people while siloing their data.

There is nothing wrong with App Stores. See: F-Droid and GNU/Linux repositories. The problem is in multinational monopolies.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#70

Post by amelius »

Freak_NL wrote: post #67
amelius wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was: if it doesn't change the duopoly then who will write apps for the open platform? Not banks. Not governments. They will keep on developing only for Android and iOS. And people with a pinephone will have a great phone with a great OS, but with a shitty selection of apps.

It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter op…

Hence smartphone OSes are a public utility, and should be opened up.
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