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New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

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Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#61

Post by didibus »

hpoe wrote: post #3

This is why I have three things I never trust the experts in. - How to be healthy - How to educate - How to raise kids It seems like every decade we find out everything we did last decade was bad and wrong but now we've finally for sure got it figured out, and this time we know we are right because we have fancier gadgets and more citations in our name. From Frued to the Food Pyramid it seems that the experts always…

> It seems like every decade we find out everything we did last decade was bad and wrong but now we've finally for sure got it figured out

I think you're being unfair. Most of the time, it's not a major 180, it tends to be smaller course corrections, refinements over current understanding of data, and the discovery of even more correlated complexities.

The issue is people want simple answers, easy to follow guidelines, and guaranteed results. The science just isn't at the point where it can deliver those. So people make up best guesses for them each decade based on where the science is at that point.

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#62

Post by nradov »

rafaelero wrote: post #52

I can't help but think that there is active effort to halt our understanding of nutrition. I mean, if we still can't say at least that saturated fat is causally related to heart disease, then this whole field is in a very bad place. My hypothesis though, is that this finding has already been established but people keep coming back to this subject to try to adjust it to their lifestyle choices.

Your hypothesis is incorrect, or at least not justified by the data. The whole field of human nutrition actually is in a very bad place. Most of what we think we know comes from low quality observational studies which don't rate well on the evidence based medicine scale.

By all means let's continue research. But people generally shouldn't rely upon most of it when making dietary choices. A better approach is to conduct your own n=1 informal experiments and determine empirically what works best for you.

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#63

Post by Pulcinella »

nradov wrote: post #30
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what the science says so far. It's amazing that since there are gaps in our knowledge people readily jump over to woo woo fad diets.

The science in this area is actually pretty low quality from a strict evidence-based medicine standpoint. It mostly consists of poorly controlled observational studies, which are only one step above the woo woo fad diets. We still don't have a solid theoretical framework for how all the pieces fit together.

We (and by we I mean the government) just need to bite the bullet and and pay for a multi billion dollar study where we pay tens of thousands of people to control* and monitor what they eat, exercise, etc for 20 years and just figure this out. None of this “well we had 20 grad students journal what they did for 6 months and this is the result” low quality studies.

*Morally correct and ethically of course. I’m not saying we force people into large hamster cages.

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#64

Post by superqd »

So much nutrition research is all correlation and no causation. Statements like this, which over-infer, kill me:

"There is little doubt that people with high cholesterol have an increased risk of disease."

It's just as valid to say that people with heart disease are more likely to have high cholesterol. When all you have is correlation, there is a heart disease group, and a high cholesterol group, and all you shown with correlation is that there is a third overlapping group of people with both. With only correlation, you don't know how/why, or even if, members of one group transform into the other. Which is partly the underpinning of the article.

It's possible that high cholesterol is a result of underlying heart disease (which the article says is possible), rather than a cause. But what shocks me is that people, even researchers, seem surprised to realize such possibilities.

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#65

Post by boatsie »

pjkundert wrote: post #58
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what the science says so far. It's amazing that since there are gaps in our knowledge people readily jump over to woo woo fad diets.

If the epic, explosive scale of obesity, diabetes and heart disease under the modern government recommended high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet doesn't give you pause, then.... I just don't know what to say.

It makes you wonder what would happen if they recommended the opposite for a generation, what would happen. Would recommending a ketoish diet improve health outcomes? Or does the recommendation mean almost nothing and people will just eat whatever is sold by big food.

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#66

Post by brianjunyinchan »

sradman wrote: post #23

PROBLEM #1: High saturated fat diet correlated to high serum cholesterol ANSWER #1: Serum cholesterol is transferred back-and-forth between the blood and cell membranes to maintain a constant cell rigidity; normal behavior PROBLEM #2: High serum cholesterol correlated to cardiovascular disease ANSWER #2: Chronic inflammation associated with metabolic disorders upsets the various regulatory systems I find the second a…

On the different pathways that inflammation might lead to arterial wall damage, here is a good read:

https://harvardmagazine.com/2019/05/inflammation-disease-die...

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#69

Post by TimedToasts »

elhudy wrote: post #5

I am close with someone who has chronic high cholesterol, in addition to a 6-pack abs. She exercises 5x/week and eats .5kg of animal products/week at most, usually white meat. She just visited her heart Dr and was told that her cholesterol is too high and that she needs to cut out animal products entirely as a next step. I am thinking...is this really the modern answer to someone's high cholesterol if they consistent…

> She exercises 5x/week

What kind of exercise: cardio, yoga, resistance/weight training, other? There have been a number of studies showing that regular weight training improves cholesterol numbers (1,2) and I have seen it personally. Regular weight training causes cells to repair/recycle their cholesterol, removing it from the bloodstream. (Cardio may or may not do this as well but I'm a proponent of weight training as the foundation of health.)

Also: after reading the article, I think that cholesterol turnover rate is the key here. Cholesterol that is regularly used up and replaced does not have time to damage your vascular system like cholesterol that hangs around and hardens on your walls.

1) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24174305/ -- Differential effects of aerobic exercise, resistance training and combined exercise modalities on cholesterol and the lipid profile: review, synthesis and recommendations

2) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33343671/ -- Regular training has a greater effect on aerobic capacity, fasting blood glucose and blood lipids in obese adolescent males compared to irregular training

Re: New model could explain old cholesterol mystery

#70

Post by Ekaros »

josefresco wrote: post #22
elhudy wrote: post #5

I am close with someone who has chronic high cholesterol, in addition to a 6-pack abs. She exercises 5x/week and eats .5kg of animal products/week at most, usually white meat. She just visited her heart Dr and was told that her cholesterol is too high and that she needs to cut out animal products entirely as a next step. I am thinking...is this really the modern answer to someone's high cholesterol if they consistent…

Both my parents are vegan, thin, active, eat basically the same things but one has "bad" cholesterol numbers and one has good. We know so little!

It could be entirely genetic. Worst case could be that some groups just tend to die earlier from these diseases... There could be some somewhat invasive medications to fix thigs. But they are likely very far away...
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