Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project • Hacker News Board

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#61

Post by Hamuko » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

tibbydudeza wrote: post #56

_ph_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if MS is serious about Windows on ARM, they should support the Mac as a show case and also to allow all future Mac buyers the chance to run Windows. Of course, Apple can't announce much until Microsoft makes an announcement about Windows on AS Macs.

Is MS not busy looking at doing their own ARM silicon for future Windows powered Surface devices after release of M1 and the failure Qualcomm with the Snapdragon 8cx (we just use ARM reference designs) ???. They do have the chops for it since they have done Xbox and Hololens and various other devices in-house.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-p...

There are rumors.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#62

Post by corytheboyd » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #58

corytheboyd wrote: post #55

I hope this and projects like it spearhead a movement of ARM laptops outside of the Apple-sphere. I wonder if System76, for example, has their eyes on being the first to market as “the Linux laptop on ARM”. Seems right up their alley. Also worth noting that I understand that System76 and Apple are not comparable companies. One is a humble operation installing a custom Linux build on rebranded hardware, and the other…

> I wonder if System76, for example, has their eyes on being the first to market as “the Linux laptop on ARM”. They are not the first already: https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/

Ah yeah pine64! But how does it compare to the M1 performance? I should have explicitly stated that these ideal computers would match or outperform Apple’s hardware, since that is very much the case with current intel based MacBooks

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#63

Post by TimTheTinker » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

ibraheemdev wrote: post #37

jarym wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if Apple will embrace Linux as Microsoft have done. If they are still a 'hardware' company at heart then they will.

I highly doubt it. Microsoft embraced Linux because they knew Windows couldn't compete in the developer OS space. MacOS on the other hand is built on Unix and is already a very popular OS for developers.

Linux has been taking serious dev mindshare (and market share) from Apple for several years now.

And I think Apple knows macOS can't compete with Linux as a development environment against browser, Linux, and cloud-based deployments. Witness how they made a point of demonstrating a Linux VM running on Apple silicon during the M1 introductory keynote, and how they continue to remove dev-oriented tooling, allowing third-party setups like homebrew to fill it in.

It seems their goal is increasingly to focus on their end-user platform only, which for dev tooling means only focusing on XCode/etc. and not the Mac's capabilities for other deployment targets.

... which leaves an obvious gap for Linux to fill. In fact, given how large and capable Apple is these days, I think there's a good chance they'll put a bit more effort into helping Linux integration along (especially Linux in VMs on macOS -- that's probably the main plan at the moment). They realize they only stand to gain from such efforts.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#64

Post by JosephRedfern » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

> As long as no code is taken from macOS in order to build the Linux support, the end result is completely legal to distribute and for end users to use, as it would not be a derivative work of macOS. Please see our Copyright & Reverse Engineering Policy for more information.

This may be a dumb question, but are any of the Open Source components of macOS [0] useful for this kind of endeavour? Specifically stuff from XNU? Or are any useful hardware specific, driver-y bits excluded?

[0] https://opensource.apple.com/release/macos-1101.html

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#65

Post by Jtsummers » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

ciwolsey wrote: post #47

ogre_codes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If they'd intended to shut this down, they would have a locked down boot loader like on iOS. Instead they deliberately built a boot loader which supported things like this.

Get people on board first. Lock it down once it's too late and everyone is invested.

That hasn't been their MO, historically. On macOS everything that's locked down by default can be unlocked (at least that I've encountered) regarding running software or other OSes on the hardware. They've made it "secure" by default, but not locked down, it's a simple switch to open it up.

If, say, the iPad or iPhone had gone this route (started off as open as Android and then became locked down) you might have a point. But they didn't, they started off restricted and have only (gradually, and to a limited degree) been opened up.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#66

Post by Klonoar » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

deadmutex wrote: post #43

Klonoar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People value industrial design, for one.

Is the Mac laptop ID significantly different than other laptops, e.g. PixelBook Go? I have a MBA, and was super surprised at how think it was compared to my Pixelbook. I would say that Apple laptop ID nothing special, and is lacking things like a touchscreen, etc. I would say that M1 has good performance ON MAC SOFTWARE, which has been tuned for it (and vice versa). It is unknown if linux will perform as well on it.

The PixelBook is closer, sure - though still not as great when it comes to, say, the trackpad. Apple also still has a near-monopoly on amazing screens. These might seem inconsequential when you scan them on a list, but the entire package really adds up.

Anyway, with that all said, the thread in question is about vendors who explicitly support Linux, which is a very different story. If I had to pick anything in that realm that I'm excited about, it's... maybe Purism's upcoming Librem 14, mostly due to them trying to do something custom. Relies on them actually shipping it, tho.

I remain surprised that System76 hasn't done more towards a non-rebranded laptop shell. I really like their desktop offerings, but I've no need for a desktop in my life.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#67

Post by unilynx » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

tibbydudeza wrote: post #56

_ph_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if MS is serious about Windows on ARM, they should support the Mac as a show case and also to allow all future Mac buyers the chance to run Windows. Of course, Apple can't announce much until Microsoft makes an announcement about Windows on AS Macs.

Is MS not busy looking at doing their own ARM silicon for future Windows powered Surface devices after release of M1 and the failure Qualcomm with the Snapdragon 8cx (we just use ARM reference designs) ???. They do have the chops for it since they have done Xbox and Hololens and various other devices in-house.

Maybe they are already developing their own "MS1" in secret ?

But even if they are, it would make sense to release Windows 10 for the M1 and getting Win-developers to start porting their applications to ARM, so they could leap-frog Apple on ARM if they manage to build a 'better' ARM SoC

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#68

Post by monocasa » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #25

reikonomusha wrote: post #21

For projects like these, I don’t know why Apple doesn’t just step in and help. What have they got to lose?

I agree. At the very least, they should be a corporate sponsor for Marcan's Patreon. Ideally they should just hire him and provide him with internal resources to work on it. Even if Apple doesn't benefit from Linux running on bare metal, many of these efforts will benefit Linux running inside a VM as well.

I don't think hardly anything here will help Linux running in a VM FWIW. The unknowns are mainly the Apple specific IP blocks which aren't exposed to VMs.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#69

Post by NikolaeVarius » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #39

deadmutex wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not support a hardware vendor that actually cares about linux?

Why not buy hardware that doesn't suck? I still have a Thinkpad for my primary laptop, but using a mac with retina, 5-10hr batt life, and a nice touchpad for work is such a joy compared to a 1080p matte screen with 3hr battery life.

1440p Matt screen, 24G Ram, i7. Battery life all day. Still cheaper than a weaker specced Mac.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#70

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

machello13 wrote: post #50

ciwolsey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing wrong with any of these speculations. If you or Apple don't like speculation the answer is for them to communicate their intention.

They've plenty communicated their intention to not turn the Mac into the iPhone/iPad. And besides which, it would be a disastrous product strategy to do that, from a company that's absolutely top-of-the-ball when it comes to product strategy.

> They've plenty communicated their intention to not turn the Mac into the iPhone/iPad.

Of course not, because they need to differentiate. This doesn't mean they renounce their plans to further lock down macOS. Running non-appstore apps is getting harder and harder each year.