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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#31

Post by brundolf »

raverbashing wrote: post #20
Bluerise wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all the feature wasn't available in the initial Big Sur release and it only got available during the Betas for the first minor patch. Second of all, some Apple developer stated on Twitter that (during M1 unveil) he's finally able to show all the boot policy work they worked on the past year(s) to allow users to boot foreign OSes and without opening up holes for attackers. Basically it boils down to: they cou…

I'd say there might be ongoing work to support Windows/BootCamp but in true Apple tradition (or maybe due to MS delays) it is being kept secret

That would make a lot of sense. Windows is in a tight spot right now because OEMs have lagged on ARM. Apple could offer MS a way out of that, while at the same time giving people one more reason to spend money on a Mac.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#32

Post by duskwuff »

flatiron wrote: post #27
nickelcitymario wrote: post #2

> In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for it. Well, this is exciting. I suppose it was inevitable that someone would take on this challenge, but it's exciting all the same.

judging by other open source reverse engineerd GPU drivers its a massive undertaking. i also looked at a shot of the chip and see lots of neural networking functionality, i wonder what sort of special drivers stuff like that needs. i just feel like the hardware is so specialized without apples help it would take a lot for it to be a killer linux laptop.

Reverse engineering of the Neural Engine is already under way:

https://github.com/geohot/tinygrad/tree/master/ane

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#33

Post by DCKing »

libria wrote: post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

> Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight?

I would point out that Apple has permitted booting alternative operating systems throughout their m68k (at least the m68ks that could meaningfully boot Linux or a BSD derivative) [1], PowerPC [2], and Intel [3] phases. It's only on Intel they actively made this a feature, because Windows Bootcamp probably allowed to sell them a certain percentage more Macs.

The only reason to believe they would change this is that the Apple Silicon architecture changes would have Apple be interested in the Mac being some sort of equivalent to an iPod Touch. I don't really see Apple being interested in that, and Apple reps have gone on record to argue similar points as well.

[1]: e.g. https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/ [2]: e.g. https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/macppc/ [3]: Uh, anything that boots on x86 EFI will probably boot.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#35

Post by sneak »

reikonomusha wrote: post #21

For projects like these, I don’t know why Apple doesn’t just step in and help. What have they got to lose?

I agree with you in theory; in practice Apple seems to have enough issues just getting their own in-house OS to work right on these things.

A lot of macOS internals are really a reflection of Apple's deadlines-over-everything, ship-at-all-costs attitude. Certain parts are great, because those teams seem to be great and are blockers, such as the kernel or the silicon. Other parts closer to the surface that aren't in quite as critical a path, all the way up to documentation... not quite as much.

Overall they do a decent job, and are certainly moving in a good direction security-wise (although not privacy-wise). It's just clear that many of their teams are stretched extremely thin.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#36

Post by depablo »

Awesome project. Also, nice logo.

Given the seemingly unbeatable performance of Apple Silicon (judging by reviews), this would remove one of the bigger pain points of having a Mac. Some projects just don't run on macOS - either due to a community lack, or due to political reasons (e.g. CUDA). I wonder why Apple does not seek to support projects like this.

Will be interesting to see how hard it is to bring this to a useable state. Thanks for the effort and looking forward to hearing more about the project!

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#37

Post by ibraheemdev »

jarym wrote: post #18
jasoneckert wrote: post #8

On the About page: "...requires a huge amount of work to be done, as Apple Silicon is a completely undocumented platform" It "is" a well-documented platform. I'm hoping that Apple makes it available to the open source community to make Linux on M1 happen sooner than later.

I wonder if Apple will embrace Linux as Microsoft have done. If they are still a 'hardware' company at heart then they will.

I highly doubt it. Microsoft embraced Linux because they knew Windows couldn't compete in the developer OS space. MacOS on the other hand is built on Unix and is already a very popular OS for developers.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#38

Post by chpmrc »

libria wrote: post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

Apple adds limitations to protect the system: "too strict!"

Apple gives the chance to disable these limitations to power users: "they should be disabled by default!"

Apple disables limitations: "temporary convenient oversight?"

...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#39

Post by unethical_ban »

deadmutex wrote: post #16
Badfood wrote: post #5

I'll buy our whole company these macs in a heartbeat if this becomes good enough

Why not support a hardware vendor that actually cares about linux?

Why not buy hardware that doesn't suck?

I still have a Thinkpad for my primary laptop, but using a mac with retina, 5-10hr batt life, and a nice touchpad for work is such a joy compared to a 1080p matte screen with 3hr battery life.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#40

Post by actuator »

It seems so amazing to me that Microsoft saw the ARM opportunity with Windows RT, released 8 years back but somehow managed to not succeed with a stellar ARM laptop story.

Maybe Qualcomm is more to blame here for never progressing as well as Apple has done on chips but maybe the software experience was just not there.

We would probably already have good ARM laptops running linux distros if Windows on ARM had taken off.

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