Abolish the Cash Bail System • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#61

Post by ponker » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

creato wrote: post #17

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Bail is in fact supposed to be a function of your financial status, and the severity of the crime. What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial? I think maybe the thing that should most change is outlawing bail bondsmen. It seems like the…

Ankle monitors works for me, with cutting off the ankle monitor earning a one way ticket to remand. Seems like we have the technology to do away with cash bail.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#62

Post by ithkuil » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

jennyyang wrote: post #8

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

Ok, so let's assume that only those 15% are actually innocent. Is that a low number? If yes, then what if it was 20%? 25% when does it stop to be ok to ask innocent people to potentially lose their jobs, custody of their children etc or put themselves una debt spiral instead?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#63

Post by kelnos » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #25

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life.

Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible that any system set up to make this "fair" would ever allow for the possibility that they need to let a person go with no bail paid at all.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#64

Post by hansvm » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

Makes sense to me. The 90+% of non-dangerous individuals being detained should be thankful that we're able to keep the Actually, that probably doesn't go far enough. We could probably get away with 95-99% collateral damage if we knew we were keeping a single extra dangerous person safely behind bars. It's just people's lives we're throwing away after all. What we need is to start arresting people sooner. As soon as they're suspected of a crime just throw them in jail so that they can't escape while we finish the investigation. We'd probably have better than anticipated performance because with the bolstered confidence in our police force more people would be willing to call in suspects and trust that something would be done about their perceived misdeeds.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#65

Post by nobody9999 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #52

8note wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely innocent until you've been proven guilty; before trial, the conviction rate is irrelevant to whether the person is innocent

> You're completely innocent until you've been proven guilty Nitpick: you’re presumed innocent, which is very different from saying you’re actually introvert.

>Nitpick: you’re presumed innocent, which is very different from saying you’re actually introvert.

No. Actual introverts are always guilty. :)

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#66

Post by nobody9999 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:42 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #27

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Isn't bail adjusted based on the persons financial status? Unlike road fines and the like, it's one of the few things that do take into account a persons wealth.

>Isn't bail adjusted based on the persons financial status?

Is it? I'm unaware of any evidence of that. If you could share some with me, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#67

Post by unishark » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:42 AM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #43

jennyyang wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

The conviction rate is because people are forced to plea out to avoid the stacked overcharging done by prosecutors. You either take the 1-5, or go to trial and risk 20 to Life. The conviction rate at the state level is most certainly not something to be proud of because of the way it's obtained >...However, there needs to be some provision to make sure that they don't stay in jail longer than what their offense would…

Funny story but the public defender jumped at the chance to "go out back and fight". And the judge got first sanctioned then lost his job.

And I rather doubt the 85 percent is dominated by innocent people accused of first degree murder pleading it down to 1-5.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#68

Post by ithkuil » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:43 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #28

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is fucking crazy. That sounds like a Blade-Runner-esque dystopia. And it’s our reality. From everything I read, it's rather scary to be poor in America, especially if you have to deal with the judicial or medical system.

> or medical system. Poor people get medicaid, which is actually pretty decent insurance since it's private (non government) insurance, paid for by the government. It's actually the middle class that has it hard: Too rich for medicaid, too poor to easily afford the deductibles. (I know this is an unpopular opinion, but things were better before Obamacare - deductibles were much much lower.)

(non american here) so what was the problem ACA was designed to solve? I assume there must have been another group of people who are not poor enough but not middle class enough? Or something else? I care about your unpopular opinion since the popular ones are easier to find

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#69

Post by rangoon626 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:44 AM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Yeah! And another thing they should have let Derek Chauvin out of jail without bail too.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#70

Post by bawolff » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

harha wrote: post #59

rallison wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the downsides weren't so significant, then sure, the pro side makes sense. But the downsides are incredibly significant - that you have huge numbers of people who spend time in jail or spend money for a bail bond, who are indeed innocent, is a sign of a fundamentally broken system. > It should be relative to your ability to pay Sure, this would help, but I suspect it would still end up often unjustly impacting tho…

You could reduce some of the downsides by reducing the amount required for bail by day and by adding limits for how long someone could be required to stay. Also an automated system to calculate bail and maximum duration (as in not the judge deciding) might reduce some bias, so some categories of potential crimes don’t end up in jail while awaiting trial unless it’s a repeated offense. Another approach could be to acc…

> You could reduce some of the downsides by reducing the amount required for bail by day and by adding limits for how long someone could be required to stay

Either the amount is sufficient to prevent the accused from hopping on a plane to Bali, or it isn't. If a lesser amount would have sufficied than that should have been the amount in the first place.

Bail isn't meant as a punishment, its meant as a way to ensure you don't leave town. If you could just wait it out, everyone who wanted to run would just wait it out, and you would end up bssically creating a system that just hinders "good" people while not serving its purpose of preventing people from skipping out.