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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#61

Post by darawk »

fzeroracer wrote: post #46
darawk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is se…

> But there are men making this choice, and their careers are generally just as negatively impacted as the women who make it. I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common.…

> I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common.

That isn't what I said though. Obviously men who start a family but don't do the childcare won't be negatively impacted. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the ones who do curtail their careers to do the childcare. This is a less common arrangement to be sure, but I know more than one heterosexual couple who has done this (usually because the woman has a better paying career).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#62

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

mech1234 wrote: post #24
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5

I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…

Your judgement of the article was nearly entirely informed by who wrote it rather than its contents. That's a good way to continue a culture war, not a good way to discover the truth. I implore you to consider the well-founded facts on both sides, not to claim this piece has absolutely nothing worth saying.

The piece by the young scientist has a lot to say, but the preface by Scott Aaronson only has to say "See, I told you so!". And that's what I'm commenting on, of course.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#63

Post by tcgv »

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

> Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig

Can you share any study/evidence to support that statement?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#64

Post by pegasus »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5

I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…

It's not just about whether an opinion is for or against, but about the actual arguments brought to the table.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#65

Post by icandoit »

deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

>And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children.

Consider these possibilities:

1. A best case scenario is that what you have expressed is a personal opinion that takes your genes out of the future in a Marty McFly fading away fashion as this opinion hardens.

Fine. Your choice. More pie for the rest of us.

2. A worst case scenario where this opinion accumulates in the market place of ideas and inevitably leads to human extinction.

Impossible right? Well, know that disgust with sex is climbing in rich nations (like Germany and Japan) and the number of births per woman is falling. Is this a function of wealth, or technology?

South Korea has fewer than 1.1 births per woman. That can only translate into a poorer, older, and smaller country for the future. [1]

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/fertil...

(I tell people that this was the thickly veiled premise of the movie Bird Box.)

If that is true, then can it be called a choice? Are people actually choosing to have fewer sexual partners than their parents generation? Are people really choosing to feel disgust at the thought of intimate contact?

Maybe repulsion-to-sex is a bigger threat to continued human existence as nuclear weapons.

Another fun article:

https://medium.com/migration-issues/how-long-until-were-all-...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#66

Post by volak »

fred_is_fred wrote: post #22
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that men and women en masse want equal roles in raising children. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

Although I love my kids I would go clinically insane if I had to do the stay-at-home raising of them full time. My wife OTOH loves it and would rather do nothing else. I know that this is swapped for many couples, but I still argue that reality is more skewed this way than the other. Maybe that will change over time.

People downvote but I assure you many dads agree.

IMO dads don't achieve the same level of bonding as women do to their babies and therefore we are able to tolerate less of the crap babies get into during the day.

Its not sexism, its just biology.

If I had a project I worked on for 9 months I would have more desire to continue working on it into the future. My investor is an interested party, but ultimately its entirely my drive which moves the project forward

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#67

Post by tharne »

blub wrote: post #38
amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Historically, the extended family and neighbors were contributing to raising children. For a couple that doesn't have family close by and lives in a city, parenthood is at least a part-time job.

Part of the issue her is that society, at least in the U.S., has significantly devalued the idea of living close to one's family. Sure, some people don't grow up in economically vibrant areas, but many others move away from family without giving much thought to what they're giving up.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#68

Post by nimajneb »

Jagat wrote: post #50
blub wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, the extended family and neighbors were contributing to raising children. For a couple that doesn't have family close by and lives in a city, parenthood is at least a part-time job.

Also, mothers didn't have to keep an eye on the kids all the time past infancy. It was fairly common to leave them on their own with other kids to play, only ensuring they're fed on time. And once they reached a sufficient age (10 or 12), children usually helped the family with their craft. Before the industrial revolution, what's considered norm today was the norm only for aristocrats.

I'm 37 and the oldest of 4 kids and your first paragraph is for the most part how I grew up. I don't remember my mom following any of us around past a certain age, like 5 or so. She cleaned the house etc. while we played inside or in the backyard. I remember going up the block to the park with my friends without any adults at the age of 10-12 or maybe a little younger.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#69

Post by clairity »

darawk wrote: post #58
clairity wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to compare it to playing video games all day is (unwittingly?) falling prey to the very systemic sexism you're trying to fathom--that "women's work" such as childcare is not "work"--that it's economically unproductive and should be "free".

No, that was not the point of my analogy. Whether it is work or not is irrelevant. When I clean my home, that is work, but nobody pays me to do it. I do the work because I receive the benefit of that work. People care for their children for the same reason. And many (most?) couples consider the income of the breadwinner to be shared between the two of them for precisely this reason: Because the couple values the chil…

yes, the employer is beside the point. the implicit assumption that women's work is not valuable is still (structural) sexism. that was the point.

edit: e.g.,

> "Choosing to take on the burden of childcare is choosing to spend less time working."

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#70

Post by dmitrygr »

deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

Because many traits people care about (like intelligence), have been shown to be at least partially genetic?
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