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US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

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Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#61

Post by Maarten88 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #8
nolok wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still hope to get it turned into a global EU thing rather than each of us bickering with its own ten of a percent competition over who gets screwed up more. But several EU countries are not on board, so we're taking baby steps, mostly aiming to prove that it does work and no those tech giants will not leave the french market (or if they do, yes someone else will rise in place).

Agreed, I applaud France to take a first step in the right direction.

I wonder about the US response. Because they themselves also get shortchanged by the same companies, yet still doing their legwork, in this case by bullying France.

Why doesn't the US tell Google to go complain to Bermuda, and implement a comparable tax themselves? And apply it to all corporation evading US corporate taxes while using US infrastructure? (big pharma)

(The answer, of course is nationalism and corporate money in US politics)

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#62

Post by nolok »

gcthomas wrote: post #53
chmod775 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EU has higher tariffs The estimated trade weighted average of tariffs by the US after the tariff announcements in 2017 was 2.2%. I couldn't find any more recent number. [1] For the EU this appears to be around 1.8% (2017). [2] It is true that the EU used to have higher tariffs though, but I don't think this is still true with the new, recent tariffs by the US. You can find the old number of 1.7% by the US in th…

Always nice to have data instead of opinion on these sort of topics.

While we are on this subject, and since I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, let's give another exemple where fact and numbers are more important than generalisation and opinions: a big contention point about tariff between EU/US was cars, and how the US claimed EU had a larger tariff than the US, while the numbers actually showed the US imposed a bigger tariff on average due to the trick of calling some cars "light truck" and putting truck tariff on them.

US argument: "Europe taxes American cars 10%, while America taxes European cars 2%."

Which seems true, when you look at the actual EU/US tariff numbers: US: 25% tariff on trucks, 2.5% on cars EU: 22% on trucks, 10 % on cars

Quote from [1]:

> But when you look in details at the numbers, you realize that most of what is sold in the US, that is considered as car in the EU, is put in the trucks category in the US, by being called "light truck".

> In the US there are twice as many "light trucks" sold compared to "cars". Light trucks are pickups, SUVs, minivans. Those are just "cars" in Europe.

> EU import fees are 10% on cars (hatchbacks and SUVs alike). US import fees are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks.

> Average car price in the US is $26k, average light truck price is $36k.

> Therefore, if you care for math, average duty on combined US car+light truck market is 19%, nearly double of the EU rate!

Trade, tariff and the likes are complex matters, but ultimately they're also just numbers, so when in doubt, run the numbers.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8vaqdi/trump_on_tra...

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#63

Post by darkcha0s »

csomar wrote: post #26

> Countries including France and the UK have accused firms of routing some profits through low-tax EU member states such as Ireland and Luxembourg. This seems to be the problem. The EU laws have allowed these companies to avoid taxes. Small countries just next to France (Luxembourg) are able to help these companies. But France will not go against these countries and instead try to handle things through taxes. I don't…

>The EU laws have allowed these companies to avoid taxes

It's the lack thereof. Regulators / Lawmakers aren't paid thousands by the hour to find and cover loopholes, and also cannot see the future. Unlike a Google, who is willing to pay someone millions to find loophole. It's a one-sided battle that giant corporations will always win.

>I don't think this will workout greatly for France. France solution to everything seems to be: "Put a tax on it". The EU needs to get its crap together.

EU or France, which is it? This initiative is coming out of France, not the EU. What did the EU do wrong this time? Did you forget that the EU is what enables these corporations to easily enter and seamlessly expand within one of the largest shared economies? If it wasn't for the EU, the work companies would have to expand would exponentially increase, due to many different regulations, taxation, tariffs, etc.

You are somehow using the protectionist actions of a member of the EU to paint the EU as the roadblock/point of incompetence, when really it does the exact opposite.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#64

Post by mhkool »

nolok wrote: post #5
dustinmoris wrote: post #2

The US can continue to bully everyone around them, but one day there will be no friends left and while the US is starting a trade war (or even an actual war) with friends and enemies other nations will strengthen their relations and the power balance will shift eventually. China has been on track to overtake the US as the largest economy for many years now. The US obviously feels threatened by the shift of economic p…

I don't stricly disagree (nor agree) with your comment, but there are several thing that you include as "a global grave issue of the western world" in general but is actually very US-centric. When I look at the list you give, "people live divided, in poverty, exploited, plagued by suicide, mental health issues, obesity and mass shootings", it's not that those issues don't exists in other countries, but in the western…

> frankly to not look like it's working and making any advance at fixing them.

yes and no. It appears that nothing is done to prevent or fix since mainstream media do not report anything. The US has the largest number of doctors of "functional medicine", which contrary to the rest, seek to find the root causes of disease, and many times find them and restore health with supplements, probiotics, life style changes and toxin avoidance. For the hardliners that deny functional medicine, I recommend to read about the full story of Dr Terry Wahls. TL;DR a professor with the best treatment for MS by many top doctors deteriorated to being in a wheelchair and she cured herself by reading the scientific literature, understanding the whole body and doing a different treatment. She now treats MS patients who who has heard of her? So fixes exist but are unknown.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#65

Post by maxheadroom »

kodz4 wrote: post #34
nolok wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't stricly disagree (nor agree) with your comment, but there are several thing that you include as "a global grave issue of the western world" in general but is actually very US-centric. When I look at the list you give, "people live divided, in poverty, exploited, plagued by suicide, mental health issues, obesity and mass shootings", it's not that those issues don't exists in other countries, but in the western…

The US is a much more diverse population and a much larger population. It's going to be more chaotic than anything the Europeans have to deal with. But dealing with that chaos, at that scale, produces lessons and learning that won't happen anywhere else, other than probably India.

>The US is a much more diverse population...

Why is this always a fallback reference point? It is demonstrably false[0,1,2,3] and is continually regurgitated - as if the continued repetition would make it consequently true. There are countries in Europe that are far more diverse than the United States. Full stop.

>But dealing with that chaos, at that scale, produces lessons and learning that won't happen anywhere else, other than probably India.

You could start with your immediate neighbours, yeah? Canada and Mexico are both far more diverse than the United States and would - by your own argument - be far more chaotic than anything the United States or Europe has to deal with, yeah?

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

[1] - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-an...

[2] - https://www.atlasandboots.com/worlds-most-diverse-country/

[3] - https://archive.fo/9AV1K

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#66

Post by yusi-san »

Bayart wrote: post #51

I guess we'll get the usual response of the US trying to bring France to its knees by putting tariffs on wine and cheese.

They have different pressure means on France now, like what they did about Alstom which is a strategic company for France (they produce essential elements about nuclear plants, nuclear submarines for example) now in the US hand through General Electric.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#67

Post by etripe »

fyoving wrote: post #31
nolok wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by targeting US tech companies It does not. In a preliminary evaluation, there are 26 companies that would match the criterias, 11 are not americans, 4 of them (that's 1/6th) are even french companies to begin with. • Vente de biens: Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, Ebay, Google, Groupon, Rakuten, Schibsted, Wish, Zalando. • Intermédiaire de services: Amadeus, Axel Springer, Booking, Expedia, Match.com, Randstad, Recruit, S…

If my math is correct then most of the companies are American, and by far most of the potential revenue. Considering the rhetoric leading to this tax and the french government's many raids and failed investigations into US companies and their taxes it's difficult even with careful wording for the french government to deny the actual target of this tax in a WTO type setting.

Maybe the US should be targeting those companies, too. I don't think you can really say a multinational still is or acts "American", even if a majority of its employees and its owners are.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#68

Post by Xixi »

fyoving wrote: post #38
nolok wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts. Just because you dress it up doesn't change what it actually is.

Are you litigating the boeing v airbus thing? didn't the WTO rule that airbus is receiving billions in illegal subsidies? And are you suggesting that france doesn't subside specific industries? If you're complaints are exclusive to the aviation and defence industries then a US complaint regarding the EU and france could include that and every other industry.

"The World Trade Organization appeals panel today upheld European claims that Boeing received billions of dollars in illegal tax breaks and subsidies from the US Department of Defense, Washington State, Kansas and South Carolina."

https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/28/wto-appeals-court-rules-ag...

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#69

Post by Bayart »

yusi-san wrote: post #66
Bayart wrote: post #51

I guess we'll get the usual response of the US trying to bring France to its knees by putting tariffs on wine and cheese.

They have different pressure means on France now, like what they did about Alstom which is a strategic company for France (they produce essential elements about nuclear plants, nuclear submarines for example) now in the US hand through General Electric.

Correct me if I'm wrong but GE bought the energy/grid part of the company, not the infrastructure/transportation part.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#70

Post by kodz4 »

maxheadroom wrote: post #65
kodz4 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a much more diverse population and a much larger population. It's going to be more chaotic than anything the Europeans have to deal with. But dealing with that chaos, at that scale, produces lessons and learning that won't happen anywhere else, other than probably India.

> The US is a much more diverse population... Why is this always a fallback reference point? It is demonstrably false[0,1,2,3] and is continually regurgitated - as if the continued repetition would make it consequently true. There are countries in Europe that are far more diverse than the United States. Full stop. > But dealing with that chaos, at that scale, produces lessons and learning that won't happen anywhere e…

Just point at the data. The extra layer of attitude doesn't sell your argument, but just distracts from it.

Sort the first table by rank US - 87 UK -109 France - 117 Germany - 148. When we talk about the West who else is anyone referring to? Denmark - 144. Norway - 146.

My comment is in response to someone separating the US from the west, not US compared to the rest of the world. So don't be in such a hurry to react.

The data shows the US is more diverse than other western countries.

Population is another important factor. What happens in a city of 10 million people and what happens in a country of 10 million people is very different. I come from India and have lived in both the US and Europe. My city has a population somewhere between Ireland and Norway but it's impossible to handle social issues the way those countries do or use them as models precisely because of the population density and diversity.

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