US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants • Hacker News Board

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#21

Post by fyoving » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

Ragnarork wrote: post #12

Quite funny of the US to complain about protectionism. I guess that's the paradox attached to it. When you do it it's fine, when someone else does it and you're affected, suddenly it's "discriminatory". Well yeah it's always been discriminatory in nature. They make a profit somewhere, they pay their taxes, period. Those loopholes need to be closed.

Even with recent tariffs, US tariffs are still generally low, it's hardly a poster child for "protectionism", the EU has other barriers in addition to tariffs and much of it is due to french protectionism.

If you think that these "loopholes" should be closed then close them for all companies and countries, don't enact discriminatory laws and then act indignant about it.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#22

Post by nolok » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

jklepatch wrote: post #16

US has a trade deficit with France. So potentially there is more to loose for France in case of a trade war: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html And generally speaking the US has a trade deficit with Europe: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe... My understanding of the economic system between the US and the world is that other countries support the US dollar by using it f…

The EU already does a fair amount of trade in euro.

Also, it's important to understand that for France this is a very important issue of fairness. Not just for political gain, but at the street level. We are one of the best countries in the world in terms of change between income inequality pre and post tax redistribution (meaning while we're not terrible but not great either in terms of income inequality pre taxes, post taxes and redistribution we jump to one of the best overall).

This law is not anti US (again like in my other comment: 11 of the 26 companies that fit the criterias are not from the US, several are EU based, and 4 are even french), it's merely making sure each pay (what wes believe to be) their fair share compared to the value they extract, and thus finally acting on the loophole that is "everyone knows and act like data is all the value / tax agencies should act like data has no value whatsoever so it can leave without being taxed".

It's not even a move against the weird licencing trick "à la" Starbucks or anything like that, it's merely a tax on data extracted. Either it has value, and it should be taxed, or it doesn't (or not enough) and then it's fairly easy to stop extracting it.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#23

Post by fajr_rd » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

jklepatch wrote: post #16

US has a trade deficit with France. So potentially there is more to loose for France in case of a trade war: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html And generally speaking the US has a trade deficit with Europe: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe... My understanding of the economic system between the US and the world is that other countries support the US dollar by using it f…

As I see it, France may benefit from its trade with the US because it has a global trade deficit so the extra dollars from America can be used to buy, say, oil from the Gulf. But for Germany and for EU as a whole (or China etc), the surplus dollars will probably never be used to buy anything useful so these exports look like a tribute offered to US.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#24

Post by nolok » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

fyoving wrote: post #21

Ragnarork wrote: post #12

Quite funny of the US to complain about protectionism. I guess that's the paradox attached to it. When you do it it's fine, when someone else does it and you're affected, suddenly it's "discriminatory". Well yeah it's always been discriminatory in nature. They make a profit somewhere, they pay their taxes, period. Those loopholes need to be closed.

Even with recent tariffs, US tariffs are still generally low, it's hardly a poster child for "protectionism", the EU has other barriers in addition to tariffs and much of it is due to french protectionism. If you think that these "loopholes" should be closed then close them for all companies and countries, don't enact discriminatory laws and then act indignant about it.

The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts.

Just because you dress it up doesn't change what it actually is.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#25

Post by throwaway925 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

jklepatch wrote: post #16

US has a trade deficit with France. So potentially there is more to loose for France in case of a trade war: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html And generally speaking the US has a trade deficit with Europe: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe... My understanding of the economic system between the US and the world is that other countries support the US dollar by using it f…

Trade balances aren't really a good measure of who is winning and losing. The more trade, the bigger the welfare gains. Shutting trade in order to close a trade deficit is bad policy. I understand that Trump uses that threat in order to get more favourable terms for the domestic producers, but I am sure he's aware of the mutual damage of blocking trade altogether.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#26

Post by csomar » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:59 AM UTC

> Countries including France and the UK have accused firms of routing some profits through low-tax EU member states such as Ireland and Luxembourg.

This seems to be the problem. The EU laws have allowed these companies to avoid taxes. Small countries just next to France (Luxembourg) are able to help these companies. But France will not go against these countries and instead try to handle things through taxes.

I don't think this will workout greatly for France. France solution to everything seems to be: "Put a tax on it". The EU needs to get its crap together.

I don't like Tariffs. But if you worked internationally you should know that the US is one of the most open countries when it comes to doing business. You can open a company, a bank account, get a tax ID, buy shares in US companies, trade, etc...

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#27

Post by throwaway925 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 10:00 AM UTC

nolok wrote: post #24

fyoving wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with recent tariffs, US tariffs are still generally low, it's hardly a poster child for "protectionism", the EU has other barriers in addition to tariffs and much of it is due to french protectionism. If you think that these "loopholes" should be closed then close them for all companies and countries, don't enact discriminatory laws and then act indignant about it.

The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts. Just because you dress it up doesn't change what it actually is.

"The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts."

what fraction of GDP is that? 1-5%? Europe semi public enterprises have a much bigger weight. Banking, energy, postal services, transport, telecommunications were until recent national monopolies and protecting domestic champions is still a matter of national interest.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#28

Post by geocar » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 10:01 AM UTC

jklepatch wrote: post #16

US has a trade deficit with France. So potentially there is more to loose for France in case of a trade war: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html And generally speaking the US has a trade deficit with Europe: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe... My understanding of the economic system between the US and the world is that other countries support the US dollar by using it f…

Not sure I agree with the analysis, at least on France.

France's top exports to the US are aircraft parts and beverages (wine).

Since the US needs those parts to export the (assembled) planes, I think the aircraft lobby (e.g. Boeing) will press hard to prevent a tariff here because it'd raise rates across the board, so that leaves wine: My hunch is even a 100% tariff on wine is unlikely to dissuade anyone from purchasing French wine -- the American wine is better, so the only people buying it are people who really wanted French wine anyway oh là là.

I don't know yet what I think about a trade war with all of Europe though.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#29

Post by jklepatch » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

nolok wrote: post #22

jklepatch wrote: post #16

US has a trade deficit with France. So potentially there is more to loose for France in case of a trade war: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html And generally speaking the US has a trade deficit with Europe: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe... My understanding of the economic system between the US and the world is that other countries support the US dollar by using it f…

The EU already does a fair amount of trade in euro. Also, it's important to understand that for France this is a very important issue of fairness. Not just for political gain, but at the street level. We are one of the best countries in the world in terms of change between income inequality pre and post tax redistribution (meaning while we're not terrible but not great either in terms of income inequality pre taxes,…

I wasnt trying to defend the US position. I actually think the position of France makes sense.

I just wanted to present a strategic view of the situation. At this level, its not really a matter of who is right, and more of who has the power to do what.

Re: US launches inquiry into French plan to tax tech giants

#30

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

National sovereignty versus globalisation again. Is it reasonable for a company to make profits from customers in a country and then not pay that country's profit-based taxes?

(Also, the US trying to bully France on this one is unlikely to go well, that tends to trigger a French nationalist response.)