Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#61

Post by schwap » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #55

ralusek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time. > Do we really want to rob childre…

> Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time.

They never said being watched exclusively changes behaviour for the better.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#62

Post by germinalphrase » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #23

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Well of course, your wife gets a huge benefit out of it. However the kids are the ones who are paying the cost.

It is - like many things in the messy world of compulsory education - obviously a trade off. The alternative cost is lost educational opportunity if these disruptions prevent students from learning.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#63

Post by behringer » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #48

panzagl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one actually watches the video, unless something happens. And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.

If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!

And let's get real here about how we solve problems with decreased privacy.

Good luck ever getting an official to do anything for you. If it does not benefit them or the system, they never have the time or authority to do it. The surveillance is to benefit the state, not the surveilled.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#64

Post by ticmasta » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #18

magduf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell 1) They did that a lot back in the "old days" anyway, since it was away from other people 2) bullies usually have poor impulse control and don't think immediately about the consequences of their actions, so they frequently won't think about the cameras, so at least some of the t…

regarding 2) that may be true of many bullies, but I would expect at least some of them to learn how to get away with it. I could certainly imagine that some bullies would start exclusively tormenting their victims in camera deadzones and the victim finally stands up for themselves in view of the camera. all the evidence would show that that kid started a fight unprovoked.

I think prisons show this is true. They're arguably some of the most surveilled areas in society yet have many occurrences of violent and serious crime.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#65

Post by behringer » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #57

UweSchmidt wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you ensure the footage is kept "at the school" (as if that was sufficiently limiting the exposure of the footage)? Who has physical access? Is the surveillance system cloud based? How is the school's security? Are her superiors legally allowed to watch the footage to evaluate performance? Could those overbearing aggressive parents eventually demand access to the footage, and worsen the whole problem? Are the…

We worry today about incriminating twitter/FB posts derailing careers. What will happen when people can retrieve your childhood and show that OMG you dissected frogs?

Little johnny was a womanizer in elementary school. See how he spanks the girls in his class? No way he can be president!

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#66

Post by germinalphrase » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

steverb wrote: post #35

opwieurposiu wrote: post #14

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

All three. We have 4 kids (3 of them now adults). We re-assessed every year and decided with the kids what their education environment would look like each year. One of them, our extremely musical daughter flipped between homeschool, private and public school several times until we found a university model school that worked well with her needs (lots of schedule flexibility to do extra-curricular music things). You d…

From a logistics point of view, how did you handle having multiple children going to/moving between multiple different schools? Is the age difference such that traveling to different schools for drop off/pick up was already assumed? I admire your thoughtfulness, but the time associated with shuttling to multiple locations each day seems challenging.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#67

Post by behringer » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #17

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

yes yes it would be all nice if we would completely revamp school system (and why stop there) into something marvelous, but back in reality where it won't probably happen in our lifetimes, some hacks may make unbearable life if public school teacher slightly more bearable.

The problem is these teachers are part of the problem. A teacher that allows her class to be surveilled 24/7 is a shitty teacher, period.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#68

Post by giaour » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #54

panzagl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The footage is only kept at the school. My wife's job is not to be the total arbiter of social justice for her students, it is to provide them with an education.

There are good questions below about lifetime of the video, etc. and while I can just state that everything is fine, the real answer is that schools in the US are not the closed organizations that are implied by a lot of the response here. School administration is 3 people, the district has a couple dozen. Budgets are public information, board meetings are open to all, and getting an agenda item to address concerns i…

I don't think this addresses the concerns being replied to. Teaching is incredibly difficult and time consuming, and just like teachers do not have the time or expertise to also be full time social workers for their students, they also do not have the time or expertise to ensure that surveillance data about their students is appropriately secured and purged. The same applies to local school administration officials, who as you point out are few in number and already stretched too thin across their existing responsibilities.

I don't think anybody's saying that a particular teacher or administrator is to blame, but the original anecdote you shared is a bit chilling if you grew up expecting your childhood misdeeds to be forgotten over time. I remember that the most frightening thing the principal could say to you was "This is going in your permanent record"; the expectation otherwise was that it wasn't.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#69

Post by mavhc » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #36

bilbo0s wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…

« So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about brain development » But are they ? Do we have any indication that this is the case ? Those tech companies could just be after what they see is money and not be based on any science (as it’s often the case). From Gaggle’s website: « You are invading my child’s privacy! Well, aren’t you? Most educators and attor…

How?

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#70

Post by giaour » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #50

Arubis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Because the teacher's job should be to teach, not to be a social worker.

True, but they should also not be required to secure surveillance infrastructure and purge collected data at regular intervals.