and do the same with men, and compare
not sure that we have to tools to understand these sorts of questions quantitatively, but i'd like to see at the least some qualitative data instead of opinions (whether reges or this group)
61–70 of 102 posts
and do the same with men, and compare
not sure that we have to tools to understand these sorts of questions quantitatively, but i'd like to see at the least some qualitative data instead of opinions (whether reges or this group)
Quick summary of respondents reasons for low % of women in C.S. (In order given): 1. Lack of coding in K-12 means fewer women are exposed to coding and thus don't become interested in it during the career selection phase of life. 2. Individuals bias' subtly steer women away from C.S. 3. Once inside a C.S. career, women are systemically marginalized. 4. Once inside a C.S. career, women face overt (and often sexual) di…
1) Lack of IT courses in K-12 affects both genders, why make this a female issue?
2) Completely subjective.
3) Pretty much the opposite. There are tons of events for women only, as well as grants and positions that are available for women only or where they’re more likely to get hired than men (so quota is filled).
4) Most of women (as in 99%) in CS don’t suffer this. Even this being of importance, I believe this happens in all industries.
5) Similar to point 3.
6) Well, empower yourself? What do we tell to male nurses then?
Edit: formatting
Quick summary of respondents reasons for low % of women in C.S. (In order given): 1. Lack of coding in K-12 means fewer women are exposed to coding and thus don't become interested in it during the career selection phase of life. 2. Individuals bias' subtly steer women away from C.S. 3. Once inside a C.S. career, women are systemically marginalized. 4. Once inside a C.S. career, women face overt (and often sexual) di…
The problem with that is that there is a clear agenda by both sides on this issue. No one wants to be discriminated against. I (male) don't want to be discriminated against in order to force women into CS. I (male) also DO NOT want women to be discriminated against to force men into positions. I assume most (not all) people agree with this even if they flip the gender. But how to execute this is political.
If we can instead approach this scientifically. To determine if there is a predisposition towards a specific career based on gender, societal pressure, discrimination, bias, etc. We can then propose political solutions that can drive society towards equilibrium.
It's ironic that Reges' carefully crafted letter drew as much ire as Damore's sophomoric, easy-to-nitpick essay, when his entire letter is a trap laid bare. Given his keen awareness of the possibility of his employment's termination and his mention of displeasure of what he sees as chilling effect in tech and academia against voicing criticism of current sociopolitical headwinds, he's armored a reasonable discussion with indications that he knows some people will call for his head. And unremarkably, it happened in the one response that addresses his points the least!
So, all these women present anecdotal evidence. If you are interested in an opposite opinion from another woman coder: https://medium.com/@marlene.jaeckel/the-empress-has-no-cloth... Reality looks very different. Women have a 2:1 chance over men to get a job in STEM: https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2015/11/04/women-favored-2-... more detailed research on this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4611984/ Th…
In one breath you dismiss these women and their "ancecdotes" while in the next breath you claim that what another woman says is "reality". Hey, I guess as long as it supports your hypothesis, right?
Then I provided data. I don't care about anecdotes
So, all these women present anecdotal evidence. If you are interested in an opposite opinion from another woman coder: https://medium.com/@marlene.jaeckel/the-empress-has-no-cloth... Reality looks very different. Women have a 2:1 chance over men to get a job in STEM: https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2015/11/04/women-favored-2-... more detailed research on this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4611984/ Th…
A lot of people on HN seem to have this bizarre rejection of any evidence that wasn't collected by objective experimentation--something which isn't possible in this sort of context. So you do the next best thing: you survey people, and their responses (i.e., anecdotes) form the data. As with experimental data, in the real world, different things will happen to different (test) subjects, which is why you need to collect sufficient data to have a representative sample.
In this case--why does it matter that Scandinavian women are less likely to choose a career in STEM? How is that relevant to Silicon Valley, or the US computer programming industry? Why does it matter that women have a 2:1 preference for STEM jobs--that's just a reaction to the initial problem, namely--why aren't women pursuing STEM jobs?
So, all these women present anecdotal evidence. If you are interested in an opposite opinion from another woman coder: https://medium.com/@marlene.jaeckel/the-empress-has-no-cloth... Reality looks very different. Women have a 2:1 chance over men to get a job in STEM: https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2015/11/04/women-favored-2-... more detailed research on this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4611984/ Th…
Anecdotes are evidence, especially if they are personal anecodotes of things they actually experience. A lot of people on HN seem to have this bizarre rejection of any evidence that wasn't collected by objective experimentation--something which isn't possible in this sort of context. So you do the next best thing: you survey people, and their responses (i.e., anecdotes) form the data. As with experimental data, in th…
American women are not far behind Scandinavian women on the equality index. Same applies to them.
For example, from 2007 to 2017, the number of males taking the AP computer science test went up by a factor of 7, Are AP CS exams relevant now? I took both in the early 90s, then got to college only to find out that nobody accepted AP credit in CS. Every school said "we use C, and the AP exam uses Pascal". Curious if anyone younger has a different experience.
Can anyone make a summary. I tried to skim quickly but I couldn't see any real reason. Thank you
In this article, 6 women in prominent CS roles each wrote essays in response.
1 is professor at the same school, says his thesis is wrong because the numbers are changing to be closer to equal (On a intro-to-code website for students K-8, genders were split 55/45 boys to girls).
2 is professor at the same school, says the gender gap happens because by not expecting girls to be programmers, then girls don't expect it of themselves, and when they do they don't get offered as much help, so it becomes self-fulfilling.
3 is PhD alum from the UW and lead data scientist at a startup, says girls often don't like CS because they feel unheard or taken advantage of, and that the article is a mean but ironic example of women's opinions being ignored. She also insinuates that the professor should be reprimanded for writing it.
4 is professor at the school, says discrimination (sexual harassment, unequal pay, condescending attitudes) are rampant in the field and make it hard for women to stay motivated.
5 is undergrad alum from the school with high honors & PhD student at Cornell, says girls lose interest because they're frequently undermined. She also thinks the wrong people get recommended to CS at a young age (e.g. kids who like computer games but not kids who like math). She says having supportive parents and good role models is necessary.
6 is undergrad alum from the school and software engineer at Microsoft who TA'd for the original professor, says it's hard to stay confident because the field is male-dominated, and that articles like these make it worse.
Everyone agrees that the issue is very complicated, and says so in their essay.
[1] https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/
edit: removed names of the responders
It's a wider issue with feminists and arguments, not specific to computing. Look at the interview of Jordan Peterson by Cathy Newman. Newman constantly misrepresented and lied about what he was saying in the interview itself, right in front of him , to an absurd level ("are you saying we should model our society after the lobsters"). The whole thing is on YouTube, it's worth watching if you can get through it without…
Sadly, misrepresenting is a common political tactic. Remember, "you didn't build that?" President Obama made the argument that businesses do rely on substantial government services that are critical to a healthy commerce sector. He said "If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." It was a clumsy way to put it, but it was clear to me what Obama was saying. Yet many on the right…