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ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

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Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#61

Post by aerotwelve »

alehul wrote: post #42
ryandrake wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d rather have 10 ISPs competing but NOT innovating than one ISP bent on innovating. Innovation, to an ISP, means: ads, data collection, pushing their own content; basically everything except being a dumb pipe that gets bits from elsewhere into my home.

What about throwing capital at developing a better way to route traffic than BGP? Or trying to further increase bandwidth and be a faster 'dumb pipe'?

That's a really interesting point. If ISPs reinvested some of their revenue into networking research (or even more applied /R&D work), it would go a long way towards both advancing our field and improving their general reputations.

Networking is not my area of expertise, so it's possible that some do this already. I guess I always assumed that ISPs had research departments whose members would be involved in drafting network-related RFCs and publishing papers, but maybe that's left to Cisco et al.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#62

Post by smsm42 »

ethbro wrote: post #49
drawkbox wrote: post #20

The ISPs are in an all out attack on competitors like Facebook/Google/Netflix/others. ISPs bought their way into the market with the ISP privacy protections being removed [1][2] and net neutrality being killed rather than innovating. The privacy protections being removed helped lessen the FCC grip on privacy and helped their case, with legislators not the people, to remove FCC net neutrality protections. It is obviou…

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

ISPs sell a commodity. I have yet to see a popular commodity supplier - steel companies, oil companies, coal companies, insurance companies, big retail stores... All have been vilified.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#63

Post by smsm42 »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #60
ethbro wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

Given the conversation is regarding the US, the difference is obvious. Users choose to use Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft or whichever "Big Web" services they want. However, many people in US have absolutely zero choice regarding their ISP, because ISPs have monopolies in the regions they serve, there's no competition. It's inherently not a free market.

You can choose to post on Facebook. But you don't choose to be tracked by Facebook or Google - that happens whether you want it or not. I don't think people are as much worried about what they explicitly share as about what information gets collected without their knowledge.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#64

Post by drawkbox »

ethbro wrote: post #49
drawkbox wrote: post #20

The ISPs are in an all out attack on competitors like Facebook/Google/Netflix/others. ISPs bought their way into the market with the ISP privacy protections being removed [1][2] and net neutrality being killed rather than innovating. The privacy protections being removed helped lessen the FCC grip on privacy and helped their case, with legislators not the people, to remove FCC net neutrality protections. It is obviou…

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

> I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately falls down to "ISPs are unpopular, web companies are popular."

A cogent argument: ISPs are your gateway to the internet you can't route around and web/mobile/content companies are built on top and can be routed around.

ISPs could build products people want instead of regulatory capturing their way into the game. ISPs aren't innovating through products, they are lobbying, bribing and legislating their way in. They should go more the direction of Hulu like Comcast did rather than trying to slow down innovation, nothing is stopping ISPs from building web/mobile properties that people want to use rather than fighting against them. ISPs should spend more money on expanding networks not data caps, slow lanes and lobbying to retain their local monopolies. ISPs should get out of the business if they don't want to be neutral networks who protect private data as the steward of your gateway to the network, they want to be content companies and ad/data collectors.

ISPs should basically be focused on what their customers want, like web companies have to do to compete, rather than what the company wants solely. Being local monopolies has gone to their head and they are abusing the position/trust.

Noone but the ISPs wanted their ISP selling their private data, removing neutral network protections, adding data caps, slowing down expansions, adding slow lanes for milking it. Google Fiber is an ISP, they should also be neutral and not selling data. ISPs are the gatway to the network and privacy is important as well as innovations to allow new types of web/mobile/media companies, right now they are trying to limit that.

When ISPs are focused again on being a neutral network that protects your trust and provides competitive speeds with the world, then they will be liked again.

Web companies aren't innocent but they aren't your gateway to the network.

Ultimately, all large companies have turned predatory in the US. We are against bullying but not by large corps apparently.

What is more respectable, innovative products that you want to use or products you are forced to use through authority and mini monopolies? You'll find your answer.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#65

Post by maxsilver »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #60
ethbro wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

Given the conversation is regarding the US, the difference is obvious. Users choose to use Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft or whichever "Big Web" services they want. However, many people in US have absolutely zero choice regarding their ISP, because ISPs have monopolies in the regions they serve, there's no competition. It's inherently not a free market.

> Users chose to use Facebook

I'd argue the opposite. Users can't not choose to use Facebook.

Even if you have never had a Facebook account, even if you have never touched a smartphone in your entire life, even if you intentionally try to eradicate Facebook from your life -- Facebook still has a profile on you, full of data about you, from other people in your life who do use Facebook.

Facebook isn't Facebook.com. Facebook is basically a modern day Equifax, that just happens to run a few apps on the side.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#67

Post by vormalpg »

drawkbox wrote: post #25
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs were once a beacon of innovation bringing in broadband I don't remember this time period. Any examples?

In the mid to late 90s going from 56k to 6Mbps was amazing. Now they are just local monopolies with fake competition abusing their position and trust. ISPs are actively holding back on innovation / expansion and that causes less innovation in the US competitively. > FCC report finds almost no broadband competition at 100Mbps speeds [1][2]. > Even at 25Mbps, 43 percent of the US had zero ISPs or just one [1][2]. [1] h…

You're aware the ISPs don't generally do any of the research and development of telecommunication equipment? They just put their stamp on modem they rent you. The "ISP innovation" line has always been pure propaganda.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#68

Post by aerotwelve »

mortenjorck wrote: post #36
lithos wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISPs are planning to get into the data game. They aim to have laws that limit SV type startups, rather than increase their future liability.

The only good outcome will be for this to backfire spectacularly with privacy protections that limit ISPs just as much as the tech companies. The ISPs are already playing a dangerous game. Unlike their buddies at the FCC, congress is elected, and with enough popular pressure (and midterms coming up), they can be persuaded to do the right thing.

Particularly since the perceptions of the telecom industry are not exactly positive as a whole.

It's worth raising a question -- do the executives at AT&T/Comcast/Mediacom/Verizon really think that the public is on their side?

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#70

Post by grandmczeb »

ethbro wrote: post #53
saagarjha wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). GDPR is regulation, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

And HN comments haven't trended neutral to critical on GDPR?

You see what you want to see. FWIW I think there have been more positive comments than negative.
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