Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#61

Post by mercurysmessage » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

scrumper wrote: post #56

mercurysmessage wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't find what he says worthwhile. It's honestly not worth bothering looking into him, in my mind with all of the terrible things he has said, and believes, he's pseudo scientific, and really doesn't understand much of what he tries to argue as well.

What terrible things?

https://twitter.com/21logician/status/831020059212541956/vid...

Purposefully misrepresents the opinions of those he disagrees with potentially, here. Not to mention how messed up what he is saying is.

https://twitter.com/21logician/status/813901825539788800/vid...

Maybe we should oppress Dawkins, and other atheists. Very hypocritical here.

https://twitter.com/21logician/status/813890243606802432/vid...

You need to be religious to have morals (unless you are Muslim, he hates Muslims...)

There is another video of him stating that women want to be brutally dominated, and that is why women support Islam... can't find the video now though.

https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/615e3z/i_am_dr_jordan_...

Frozen was propaganda, in his mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjON3cwjILQ

Women should just have a family, not try to have a career or work.

There are plenty more examples of this kind of behaviour, if you look into him more. But he is quite clearly sexist, and he panders to the alt-right.

Additionally, he is supposed to be a self-help guru, but he gets quite angry and vents on twitter all the time, those two don't quite add up to me.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#62

Post by rusk » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

wilsonnb wrote: post #54

rusk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps check out the Russel Brand "Under the skin" interview - I think that's the closest I've seen to Peterson getting a good stiff interview. You probably know Russell Brand as that guy that was married to Katy Perry but trust me, once you get past his whimsy he's got a razor sharp intellect. On the face of it he embodies much of what Peterson speaks out about, and you'd think they'd be at loggerheads but…

I'm giving it a listen now. I'm only 10 minutes or so into it, but this is a quote (not exact, but close enough) from Jordan Peterson: "(music and cathedrals) are ways of trying to symbolically represent how things could be if they were put in the proper state of balance or harmony" What does that even mean? The only concrete nugget of knowledge I can get from that is that cathedrals are designed in a relatively bala…

I think Russell has him sized when he opines that he has ”some mischief about him”

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#63

Post by thinkingemote » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

wilsonnb wrote: post #54

rusk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps check out the Russel Brand "Under the skin" interview - I think that's the closest I've seen to Peterson getting a good stiff interview. You probably know Russell Brand as that guy that was married to Katy Perry but trust me, once you get past his whimsy he's got a razor sharp intellect. On the face of it he embodies much of what Peterson speaks out about, and you'd think they'd be at loggerheads but…

I'm giving it a listen now. I'm only 10 minutes or so into it, but this is a quote (not exact, but close enough) from Jordan Peterson: "(music and cathedrals) are ways of trying to symbolically represent how things could be if they were put in the proper state of balance or harmony" What does that even mean? The only concrete nugget of knowledge I can get from that is that cathedrals are designed in a relatively bala…

I'm guessing here, but here's a go:

Symbolically would mean that it represents something to do with the human condition. In the case, I would imagine, he means that the design of cathedrals and great music both tap into some kind of perfect or balanced thing in humans. Such a thing is something to aim for, or towards. Its how we cant write a recipe to how to write great (not just good, but the real stuff that makes your hair stand on end) music - and that sense of awe we feel in a cathedral. And both are man made and not a natural beauty.

He has also talked about the cross formation of most churches, but I don't think that quote was about that.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#64

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

personlurking wrote: post #57

timmytwotime wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Clean your room" is an internalization: how can you judge or even change the world if your room (your life) is a mess? The point is to fix yourself first, then start taking on the world. And do it all in small steps. > the meaning part has yet to hit me You don't feel any sort of pride after getting yourself in order? Are you sure you have yourself in order?

It's perhaps that the 'getting myself in order' part is still in progress, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[deleted]

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#65

Post by psyc » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

rainingmonkey wrote: post #35

psyc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to get a clearer picture of what Peterson is about, I did the unthinkable and watched a lot of his lectures. My opinion is that he's extremely thoughtful, formidable not so much in original thought, but careful synthesis of the many well-known sources he draws on most, and above all worthwhile. That is I think he says a ton of things that are fascinating (as Scott says, kind of in the Gladwell sense) and thi…

>Peterson isn't making many scientific claims, or even claims as such. My first encounter with Peterson was hearing his "lobster theory", which struck me as such pseudoscientific piffle that I've tried to pay him as little attention as possible ever since. I imagine the reason Peterson elicits such strong reactions is because he presents differently for different audiences. As suggested elsewhere in the comments, "he…

This is most unfair. You may take issue with specific aspects of how Peterson, specifically, articulates the evolutionary origin of social hierarchy. You may even take issue with evolutionary psychology at large, which is a separate argument. To call the idea that there is an evolutionary origin, or that it is ancient, 'psudoscientific' seems to be just name-calling, unless you have a basis for this you aren't presenting here. Peterson is far from the first to think or write about it.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#66

Post by thinkingemote » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

Interestingly this has been flagged, but there's only a couple of replies that I can see that are grey, and only a couple that's critical of the article and subject. But I can't see any flames at all, just the usual HN courtesy.

Is the auto flag mechanism to do with up and down votes of comments? Does that make some comments controversial? I like upvoting comments that go against the stream, but would that mean that the whole discussion gets more likely to be auto flagged? Would a user's best bet be to go with the crowd (and to downvote or not vote up such dissenting opinions) ?

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#67

Post by tenaciousDaniel » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #52

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

Thank you for posting this honest revelation. I sympathize as I also had similar infatuations with Rand in my teens and Chomsky in my twenties. However, let me also warn you that this path of becoming infatuated with "thinkers" like Peterson is a dead end. People like Rand, Chomsky and Peterson look heroic merely because they are willing to shout the loudest and attract the spotlight. If you are really searching for…

I don't see Peterson as an end in himself. I see him as a valuable pointer. He hasn't shown me any destination, only a recognizable path. But I've spent my adult life looking for that path with no luck, so it's a huge achievement in and of itself.

I think you're falling into a trap that's easy to fall into, and perhaps lies at the crux of the criticisms leveled against Peterson. What I'm about to say has certainly been more eloquently stated by someone else, but I'll do my best here. As I see it there are effectively two types of knowledge acquisition and transference. The first is explanatory knowledge. Scientists and philosophers work to build new explanations of the world. In this realm, it makes no sense to re-tread familiar territory, and the faster we accumulate this knowledge, the better.

There's another realm, and it's what I would call cultural knowledge. These are like "social truths" that are arrived at via some method of consensus in a given group of people. In this realm, the re-treading of familiar territory is acceptable, so long as the knowledge still needs to propagate throughout society or be contested by those who deviate from it. In this realm faster is not better, because these truths act as societal stabilizers.

I see Peterson's influence as belonging to the second realm. I find it irritating when people point out that "it's been said before". Yes, I'm sure it's been said before, but that is not the point. The point is to revivify that knowledge within a culture. To assume he needs to tread new ground is to treat him as belonging to the first realm, and I don't think that's the correct approach here.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#68

Post by mercurysmessage » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #52

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

Thank you for posting this honest revelation. I sympathize as I also had similar infatuations with Rand in my teens and Chomsky in my twenties. However, let me also warn you that this path of becoming infatuated with "thinkers" like Peterson is a dead end. People like Rand, Chomsky and Peterson look heroic merely because they are willing to shout the loudest and attract the spotlight. If you are really searching for…

Peterson is also anti-women and pseudo scientific, not a great intellectual on those counts.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#69

Post by LMYahooTFY » Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 4:46 AM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #52

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

Thank you for posting this honest revelation. I sympathize as I also had similar infatuations with Rand in my teens and Chomsky in my twenties. However, let me also warn you that this path of becoming infatuated with "thinkers" like Peterson is a dead end. People like Rand, Chomsky and Peterson look heroic merely because they are willing to shout the loudest and attract the spotlight. If you are really searching for…

I have to strongly disagree.

You're writing off people in "the spotlight" as if it is incapable of shining on people who convey rational ideas.

To be frank, you also assert your opinion on the competence of thinkers as if it's factual.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#70

Post by rusk » Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #67

tryitnow wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this honest revelation. I sympathize as I also had similar infatuations with Rand in my teens and Chomsky in my twenties. However, let me also warn you that this path of becoming infatuated with "thinkers" like Peterson is a dead end. People like Rand, Chomsky and Peterson look heroic merely because they are willing to shout the loudest and attract the spotlight. If you are really searching for…

I don't see Peterson as an end in himself. I see him as a valuable pointer. He hasn't shown me any destination, only a recognizable path. But I've spent my adult life looking for that path with no luck, so it's a huge achievement in and of itself. I think you're falling into a trap that's easy to fall into, and perhaps lies at the crux of the criticisms leveled against Peterson. What I'm about to say has certainly be…

You've described "Top Down" and "Bottom Up" means of knowledge production. Often cast as rationalism and empiricism respectively. One favours knowledge that is known already and seeks to generalise that to explain the world, and the other favours knowledge that is produced trying to deal with specific problems on a case-by-case basis.

Each approach has it's conceits, strengths and weaknesses but truth emerges where these are reconciled and a synthesis is arrived at.