Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

slatestarcodex.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 78 posts

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#41

Post by vinceguidry »

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

One thing you can do is to actually read the Bible. You don't have to become an evangelical to get meaning and use out of it.

Here's a great example of how to read it:

https://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2017/08/everything-y...

You can keep the supernatural stuff at bay and just use the Bible the way it's intended to be used, as a repository of wisdom. It's got a bunch of really cool stories in it that are also really dark and rich. They don't just have one moral. You can see yourself in any of the characters in any of the stories and it will show you what to look for and how to respond.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#42

Post by ivoras »

n4r9 wrote: post #13
weego wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that controversial though? I'm nearly 40 and I feel like had Jordan Peterson said a lot of what he says now when I was at University it would have been of almost no note whatsoever. It feels more like his statements are elevated to controversy by how polarised, anti-contextual and narrow the margins of contemporary discourse have become rather than him being particularly controversial. "Enforcing equalit…

I don't think controversy needs to be modern. To take a more extreme example, it was common just over 100 years ago in the UK to hear that women should not have the vote due to the distinct natures of men and women [0]. Now (for comparison's sake) we hear Peterson talking about how women are naturally more "agreeable" and "self-sacrificing", and that this is vital for the purposes of childcare [1]. I'm not qualified…

Though I agree that they may have the same effect on the general population, there are still large differences between claiming that "on average, on a very large sample size, population X has more Y than Z," saying "population X must always be Y" and saying "population X is banned from doing anything but Y".

Whether there is a slipper-slope danger here is, I think, the real question, and how much other values should we sacrifice, if any, to actively and energetically avoid this slippery slope.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#43

Post by wilsonnb »

mercer wrote: post #33
danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

I'm not a fan of Peterson, but from the bits I've looked into I find the part you highlight most attractive. I come from a deeply religious (Evangelical) background, and in some ways, perhaps, my situation is 'worse' than yours because I never left because I felt that it was burdensome. On the contrary! I loved much of it and in hindsight the structure and social life it provided me might've been extra-valuable in li…

As one of the people who you probably think doesn't understand the sense of community that a church can provide, I am curious if you think church can provide a sense of community that can't be provided by a bowling league, book club, or any other local gathering of people.

I have nothing against people gathering to find a sense of community but I am somewhat against the beliefs of most organized religions that I am familiar with.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#44

Post by tenaciousDaniel »

rusk wrote: post #36
psyc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He clearly condemns fascism, anti-semitism, etc, and is mostly individualist. I believe he doesn't directly address /pol types much because they haven't been literally inches from his face, whereas identity-politics people have been, as well as surrounding lecture halls carrying on and breaking windows to intimidate him and his audiences. He certainly condemns the worst alt-right ideas.

I don't think his critiquing of modern identity politics is necessarily an ideological thing. Like you say he's been embattled for some time over his opposition to the whole "C-16" gender pronouns thing. For better or worse this firmly gained him cheerleaders on "the right" while gaining him vociferous condemnation on "the left". As GP points out he's not so critical of his alt-right cheerleaders. Perhaps we would li…

I think this critique of him is fair. I would have less of a problem with the SJW-types if they showed any interest in combating the more extreme/hostile elements in their own side. I should expect the same from the right, and though Peterson does mention his opposition to the alt-right from time to time, he could do with a fair bit more of it.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#45

Post by tenaciousDaniel »

wilsonnb wrote: post #43
mercer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of Peterson, but from the bits I've looked into I find the part you highlight most attractive. I come from a deeply religious (Evangelical) background, and in some ways, perhaps, my situation is 'worse' than yours because I never left because I felt that it was burdensome. On the contrary! I loved much of it and in hindsight the structure and social life it provided me might've been extra-valuable in li…

As one of the people who you probably think doesn't understand the sense of community that a church can provide, I am curious if you think church can provide a sense of community that can't be provided by a bowling league, book club, or any other local gathering of people. I have nothing against people gathering to find a sense of community but I am somewhat against the beliefs of most organized religions that I am f…

Coming from a similar evangelical background to the person above, I can say that the community is very different than that of a club or sports league. I'm not diminishing the community that you can get out of it - even seemingly-trivial associations can become profound. Some of the strongest connections I've had with people have been with co-workers.

But a community centered around a particular framework, with a particular set of goals that extend beyond even the lifespan of the people involved, combined with an outlet for collective grief/ecstasy. It's hard to describe if you haven't grown up in it, but it's different from any other community I've experienced.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#46

Post by wilsonnb »

I've listened to a few of his lectures and read a few articles about him and I don't see a difference between what he says and what every other self-help author who wants to sell millions of books is saying.

It's mostly vague hand-wavy kind of stuff that sounds profound in the moment but later realize it's either blatantly obvious truth dressed up in fancy words or it's nonsense wearing the same clothes.

Had he not gained fame and notoriety through his campaign against that Canadian law and political correctness in general, I don't think anyone would have cared about what he has to say.

If anyone familiar with his work could point me towards some of it that would dispute that characterization I would be happy to read or listen to it, provided I don't have to pay for it.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#47

Post by mercer »

ayayecocojambo wrote: post #40
psyc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He clearly condemns fascism, anti-semitism, etc, and is mostly individualist. I believe he doesn't directly address /pol types much because they haven't been literally inches from his face, whereas identity-politics people have been, as well as surrounding lecture halls carrying on and breaking windows to intimidate him and his audiences. He certainly condemns the worst alt-right ideas.

sure he is. he could have make criticism about alt-right with exact same harshness and might not say too much thing about leftists without too much changing his stance. this bothers me since i believe raising nationalism is much bigger threat than a couple thousands of university students. (although 'political correctness' is also a raising problem)

Ah yes, but the article paints a picture of him actively not doing so because he's trying to help exactly those who are caught in this 'raising nationalism'.

More than once I've caught myself leaning into or at least not challenging views that I strongly disagree with when talking to someone espousing them, because I felt it would not really be helpful/productive. I can see Peterson doing the same, and avoiding outright condemning the 'alt-right' in the way you desire because he might feel it would not lead to a desirable outcome.

I'm uncomfortable giving him this leeway, but I have to admit that I respect Scott enough to not write what he did without a decent degree of thought.

For myself, at least, I can't tell if this is the right approach. But at the very least I can say it's not as simple as always expressing my 'true' beliefs. That would be lazy.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#48

Post by mercer »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #45
wilsonnb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of the people who you probably think doesn't understand the sense of community that a church can provide, I am curious if you think church can provide a sense of community that can't be provided by a bowling league, book club, or any other local gathering of people. I have nothing against people gathering to find a sense of community but I am somewhat against the beliefs of most organized religions that I am f…

Coming from a similar evangelical background to the person above, I can say that the community is very different than that of a club or sports league. I'm not diminishing the community that you can get out of it - even seemingly-trivial associations can become profound. Some of the strongest connections I've had with people have been with co-workers. But a community centered around a particular framework, with a part…

I'll second this. A book club, or any other gathering I've experienced (and I've searched frantically), pales in comparison to the 'smallgroups' that were part of my religious world. The closest I came to that experience in a non-religious way were some of the Alain de Botton style 'Church for Atheist' meetups. And even then only the ones that were organized by an overtly religious person!

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#49

Post by mercurysmessage »

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

I personally don't find what he says worthwhile. It's honestly not worth bothering looking into him, in my mind with all of the terrible things he has said, and believes, he's pseudo scientific, and really doesn't understand much of what he tries to argue as well.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#50

Post by timmytwotime »

personlurking wrote: post #27

One thing I fight with, internally, is his idea that if you "clean up your room", so to speak, your life will start to have meaning. Because of him, and due to doing his Self-Authoring program, I followed the steps, took responsibility for my life and changed a lot of things, but the meaning part has yet to hit me. Perhaps it's there, yet buried, I don't know.

"Clean your room" is an internalization: how can you judge or even change the world if your room (your life) is a mess? The point is to fix yourself first, then start taking on the world. And do it all in small steps.

> the meaning part has yet to hit me

You don't feel any sort of pride after getting yourself in order? Are you sure you have yourself in order?

Post reply on HN