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How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

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Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#61

Post by EliRivers »

tdb7893 wrote: post #60
EliRivers wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you say, this is indeed a different situation. Here are their own rules on when they may remove a passenger from the plane. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag... None of them address this situation. They broke the contract of carriage (as well as, it appears, his nose; three bully boy police officers beat up a 69 year old man, who has committed no crime, at the request of an airline). Als…

I'm not sure of the legal terms but it's private in the same way that Disneyland or a store in the mall is private. There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you. I've been kicked out of a store for just being too loud before

It's private property. Which does not automatically make it private space. As I recall, part of the definition in at least one set of law involves whether or not it's reasonable to expect members of the public to be there without explicit invitation.

There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you.

That's just plain not true. There are reasons why people can be asked to leave; those reasons are curtailed. There are unacceptable reasons to kick someone out. You may not arbitrarily evict people. If you evict someone for the wrong reason, you may have committed a crime. Obviously I'm talking about US law; in other places, other rules apply.

While I'm here, just because it's one of my favourite legal misunderstandings, putting something in a contract doesn't necessarily make it legally binding. But that one's just for fun.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#62

Post by Hydraulix989 »

WkndTriathlete wrote: post #54
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an experience that isn't really unique to United though, the major carriers all have nearly the same legroom (+/- 1"). As a 6'1" passenger, I can tell you that your claim that you "couldn't sit" while the passenger in front of you was fully reclined is a gross exaggeration. Sure, I empathize with you that it was uncomfortable, and rest assured, you were paying an extremely bargained price for your airfare. Bas…

As a 6'1" passenger myself, I can only assume you have short femurs. I've had that exact scenario happen to me on a flight - when the person in front of me reclines, my legs from my rear end to my kneecaps do not fit in the space provided in an economy seat. I book seats that are Economy Comfort (I fly Delta) or exit-row seating, but when flying with my wife and children I sometimes need to choose comfort or sitting…

I believe we're both slightly over one standard deviation above the mean for adult male height.

Regardless, I am a competitive distance runner (and have the right body type for the sport). My femurs are likely even larger than yours, and yes, my knees stick a little bit outside of my space into the adjacent seat, but I am still perfectly capable of sitting in my seat. I've had overweight seatmates that encroach more on others' personal space than my knees do.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#63

Post by Hydraulix989 »

Larrikin wrote: post #51
fefzero wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar for basic service has dropped so far that you are no longer treated like a person if you don't pay for the extras. My wife and I saved up for a resort trip for our ten year anniversary only to find that our 4-hour flight included a seat without enough leg room for me to sit while the person in front of me reclined into my lap (I'm 6'2"). The passenger in front of me wanted to stay reclined and the flight atte…

A partially deflated capped water or soda bottle put between the seat and tray table let's the person recline recline without letting them discomfort you by over reclining

The trick is setting this up BEFORE the other passenger reclines. You're not supposed to recline your seat or have tray tables out during takeoff. All too often, the former rule is substantially easier to break than the latter without getting noticed by the flight attendants. So in practice, immediately after the flight attendants sit down while the plane is still taking off, said obnoxious passenger reclines their seat all the way back, even though they are technically not supposed to yet.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#64

Post by woodpanel »

michaelmrose wrote: post #44
jasode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a) the economic usefulness of overbooking I realize that "overbook" can mean different things but United flight #3411 wasn't oversold to statistically offset no-shows. Instead, the plane had a capacity of 70 seats[1] and United sold all 70 seats to paying customers with zero cancellations. That's a perfect economic situation for United. What went wrong was 4 extra United employees needed a last-minute ride on that p…

They could also have just paid for those employees to take a competitors airline if it was vital for them to be there immediately despite their poor planning.

Does that mean, the employees took the liberty to kick the customer out? If so, I would think that they either didn't thought anyone to disobey and especially not to end up this violently. Still, this would speak volumes upon United's management.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#65

Post by Hydraulix989 »

willvarfar wrote: post #8
kelnos wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing that always bothers me. By _far_, when (at least US domestic) travelers book flights, their main and often only consideration is ticket price. People claim to be annoyed by baggage fees, not being able to select their seat ahead of time, no or limited food, paid in-flight entertainment, overselling, etc., but they refuse to vote with their wallets and pay more for better service. We've made this bed…

United also threw off a $1000 ticket first-classer this week: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/04/11/another-passenger-... They alienate those who are not considering the ticket price too.

I've been demoted from first class before during boarding, but that's because I snatched the upgrade for $50 during same day check-in.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#66

Post by narrismith »

tdb7893 wrote: post #53
hackbinary wrote: post #35

In this situation, shouldn't there have been some form of mandatory auction, where the Airline would have to bid to buy the seat back. Or do what Delta does, and form a contract with the passenger to buy back the ticket for a pre-agreed price? I do find it shocking that the airport police got involved with what really seems to be a civil, rather than criminal matter, but then again, such are the times. Airlines shoul…

The issue is that the guy refused to leave a private space, getting security or police to remove him seems like the solution to that problem in most other contexts. It's a different situation but if someone refused to leave my office they would definitely call the police

It's crazy that freeloading squatters have more rights than paying customers.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#67

Post by [deleted] »

Larrikin wrote: post #51
fefzero wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar for basic service has dropped so far that you are no longer treated like a person if you don't pay for the extras. My wife and I saved up for a resort trip for our ten year anniversary only to find that our 4-hour flight included a seat without enough leg room for me to sit while the person in front of me reclined into my lap (I'm 6'2"). The passenger in front of me wanted to stay reclined and the flight atte…

A partially deflated capped water or soda bottle put between the seat and tray table let's the person recline recline without letting them discomfort you by over reclining

[deleted]

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#68

Post by tdb7893 »

EliRivers wrote: post #61
tdb7893 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure of the legal terms but it's private in the same way that Disneyland or a store in the mall is private. There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you. I've been kicked out of a store for just being too loud before

It's private property . Which does not automatically make it private space . As I recall, part of the definition in at least one set of law involves whether or not it's reasonable to expect members of the public to be there without explicit invitation. There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you. That's just plain not true. There are reasons why people can be asked to leav…

If your reason is discriminatory you can't evict someone but kicking someone off to make room for an employee isn't illegal at all

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#69

Post by EliRivers »

tdb7893 wrote: post #68
EliRivers wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's private property . Which does not automatically make it private space . As I recall, part of the definition in at least one set of law involves whether or not it's reasonable to expect members of the public to be there without explicit invitation. There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you. That's just plain not true. There are reasons why people can be asked to leav…

If your reason is discriminatory you can't evict someone but kicking someone off to make room for an employee isn't illegal at all

I understand that's not true. I understand it is an FAA violation (i.e. breaking the law) to drop someone with a confirmed reservation in favour of an employee.

Additionally, what happened was also a violation of the conditions of carriage that the airline had set up. They were breaking their own rules.

What makes you say it's not illegal? Perhaps I'm reading the rules incorrectly.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#70

Post by seanp2k2 »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #62
WkndTriathlete wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 6'1" passenger myself, I can only assume you have short femurs. I've had that exact scenario happen to me on a flight - when the person in front of me reclines, my legs from my rear end to my kneecaps do not fit in the space provided in an economy seat. I book seats that are Economy Comfort (I fly Delta) or exit-row seating, but when flying with my wife and children I sometimes need to choose comfort or sitting…

I believe we're both slightly over one standard deviation above the mean for adult male height. Regardless, I am a competitive distance runner (and have the right body type for the sport). My femurs are likely even larger than yours, and yes, my knees stick a little bit outside of my space into the adjacent seat, but I am still perfectly capable of sitting in my seat. I've had overweight seatmates that encroach more…

Re: overweight passengers, if I ran an airline, there would be a seat with side panels to test your fit. The seat would have side pressure sensors. If you can sit in the boxed seat without touching either side, fine. If you can't do so without touching one side or the other, you'd have to pay more. We'd also charge for weight, something per-pound. It costs more in fuel to move each additional pound.

There would be a required training course for boarding and unboarding which all potential passengers would be required to pass. We'd also teach people how to put their carry-on in the bin in the correct orientation (with the widest side inserted depth-wise and the second widest dimension vertically such that 4 bags can fit into a normal bin instead of 3 or 2 + that one person's purse which should be under the seat). It'd be like a marching band, with timed choreography. We'd board using the front and rear doors. I bet I could reduce average boarding time to 20% of what it is today.

There would be no in-flight screens for entertainment, no drink or snack service, etc. There would be a double-walled [possibly plexiglass if no lighter alternatives exist] section for people traveling with children under about 12, with a bit of space reserved for anyone acting like they're under 12. This would contain the noise and smells. If this could not be made to work, simply restrict booking to passengers older than 12, then everyone else can appreciate baby-free flights.

The benefits of all of this would be reflected in ticket pricing and clearly-stated business practices + expectations. It would have limited appeal, but excellent customer service and I would expect a cult following of loyal frequent travelers who appreciate efficient travel.

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