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How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

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Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#51

Post by Larrikin »

fefzero wrote: post #26
kelnos wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing that always bothers me. By _far_, when (at least US domestic) travelers book flights, their main and often only consideration is ticket price. People claim to be annoyed by baggage fees, not being able to select their seat ahead of time, no or limited food, paid in-flight entertainment, overselling, etc., but they refuse to vote with their wallets and pay more for better service. We've made this bed…

The bar for basic service has dropped so far that you are no longer treated like a person if you don't pay for the extras. My wife and I saved up for a resort trip for our ten year anniversary only to find that our 4-hour flight included a seat without enough leg room for me to sit while the person in front of me reclined into my lap (I'm 6'2"). The passenger in front of me wanted to stay reclined and the flight atte…

A partially deflated capped water or soda bottle put between the seat and tray table let's the person recline recline without letting them discomfort you by over reclining

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#52

Post by [deleted] »

oconnore wrote: post #18
yock wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't talk about busting up near-monopolies without first considering the market environment which created those near-monopolies. I don't see too many people asking how we got here in the first place. Without those questions (for which I have no answers) we're doomed to end right back up here.

The whole point of capitalism is that you solve those problems from the bottom up, not from the top down. Pick one.

[deleted]

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#53

Post by tdb7893 »

hackbinary wrote: post #35

In this situation, shouldn't there have been some form of mandatory auction, where the Airline would have to bid to buy the seat back. Or do what Delta does, and form a contract with the passenger to buy back the ticket for a pre-agreed price? I do find it shocking that the airport police got involved with what really seems to be a civil, rather than criminal matter, but then again, such are the times. Airlines shoul…

The issue is that the guy refused to leave a private space, getting security or police to remove him seems like the solution to that problem in most other contexts. It's a different situation but if someone refused to leave my office they would definitely call the police

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#54

Post by WkndTriathlete »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #41
fefzero wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bar for basic service has dropped so far that you are no longer treated like a person if you don't pay for the extras. My wife and I saved up for a resort trip for our ten year anniversary only to find that our 4-hour flight included a seat without enough leg room for me to sit while the person in front of me reclined into my lap (I'm 6'2"). The passenger in front of me wanted to stay reclined and the flight atte…

That's an experience that isn't really unique to United though, the major carriers all have nearly the same legroom (+/- 1"). As a 6'1" passenger, I can tell you that your claim that you "couldn't sit" while the passenger in front of you was fully reclined is a gross exaggeration. Sure, I empathize with you that it was uncomfortable, and rest assured, you were paying an extremely bargained price for your airfare. Bas…

As a 6'1" passenger myself, I can only assume you have short femurs. I've had that exact scenario happen to me on a flight - when the person in front of me reclines, my legs from my rear end to my kneecaps do not fit in the space provided in an economy seat.

I book seats that are Economy Comfort (I fly Delta) or exit-row seating, but when flying with my wife and children I sometimes need to choose comfort or sitting near them. (For the record, I choose to sit near them when I am forced to choose.)

I'm a little unhappy about being charged an extra $100 to fly Economy Comfort just because I happen to be in the 90th percentile for height, but I understand the engineering and social issues of providing seating in a fixed space for 200+ passengers.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#55

Post by EliRivers »

tdb7893 wrote: post #53
hackbinary wrote: post #35

In this situation, shouldn't there have been some form of mandatory auction, where the Airline would have to bid to buy the seat back. Or do what Delta does, and form a contract with the passenger to buy back the ticket for a pre-agreed price? I do find it shocking that the airport police got involved with what really seems to be a civil, rather than criminal matter, but then again, such are the times. Airlines shoul…

The issue is that the guy refused to leave a private space, getting security or police to remove him seems like the solution to that problem in most other contexts. It's a different situation but if someone refused to leave my office they would definitely call the police

As you say, this is indeed a different situation. Here are their own rules on when they may remove a passenger from the plane.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag...

None of them address this situation. They broke the contract of carriage (as well as, it appears, his nose; three bully boy police officers beat up a 69 year old man, who has committed no crime, at the request of an airline).

Also, I suspect it could be argued that it was not a private space. Privately owned, yes, but not a private space. This wasn't trespass.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#56

Post by ta7000 »

Another dumb article focusing in overbooking. Unfortunately, United was given a free pass as most media erroneously attribute this error to overbooking. It was not. They fly was at full capacity, but they didn't overbook clients. They removed a fully seated paying customer, breaking their contract, to accommodate employees. This is not about overbooking, is an illegal removal of a protected paying customer.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#57

Post by seanp2k2 »

calbear81 wrote: post #2

If we as consumers are voting with our wallets, in most cases we're the ones who have accepted the new norm as acceptable in the spirit of chasing ever lower fares. Consider the success of airlines like Ryanair which charges for every possible amenity and slight convenience. United Airlines has largely been the laggard in the industry in the past 5 years even though their stock price has risen 200%, that is 50% less…

More on airlines as an oligopoly enabling the poor treatment of customers with little consequence: http://fusion.net/airlines-can-treat-you-like-garbage-becaus...

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#58

Post by mindcrime »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #39
yock wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't talk about busting up near-monopolies without first considering the market environment which created those near-monopolies. I don't see too many people asking how we got here in the first place. Without those questions (for which I have no answers) we're doomed to end right back up here.

What question is there? We created monopolies with the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. It stopped forcing airlines to provide service to regional airports, and paved the way for the consolidation of the industry into the monopolists as Eastern, Midway, Braniff, Pan Am, Continental, Northwest Airlines, and TWA were liquidated.

I'm a little iffy on this idea that there is any monopoly on air travel in the US in any general sense. Maybe for specific routes, but if you look at the big picture, you have:

4 "major" carriers - American, Delta, United, Southwest

1 "mid major" / borderline major in Alaska Airlines

1 "not a major, but not exactly a regional carrier" in Jet Blue

and a bunch of regional outfits like Frontier, Porter, Spirit, etc.

That's not to say that more competition wouldn't be nice, but it's hardly the case that there is no competition. Heck, as far as that goes, Peter Thiel uses airlines - and their razor thin profit margins - as the prototypical example of why "competition is for losers"[1] in his talks.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx5Q8xGU8k

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#59

Post by manarth »

FussyZeus wrote: post #50
manarth wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that, flying without the passengers who didn't show is cheaper. Every extra kg is a cost in fuel, so passengers not showing up is already a net saving. That said, I do see the appeal of allowing flexibility in tickets, allowing someone who's missed their flight to catch the next, with no/minimal additional cost. And I recognise that might need practices such as overbooking to accommodate. Overbooking's been…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the logistics actually be much simpler if they did away with overbooking altogether? Then they'd have drastically fewer people needing to emergency board flights (since they weren't kicked off) and wouldn't need to compensate them. It's more accurate to say a man got beat up because United sold his seat twice and couldn't figure out what to do about it when they got caught.

You're right to say that doing away with overbooking would simplify the system, simplify the logistics.

As a consumer though, it would makes things more complicated and/or more expensive. I would argue that in most cases, the airlines are in a better position to handle the complexity and costs than the individual consumers, who may be delayed, break down on the way to the airport, whatever.

This particular scenario is bizarre and unwarranted for two main reasons:

1. The event happened after the individual had boarded the aircraft. If the dispute had happened at the gate, the individual would have had to use violence to board the aircraft. As it happened after he had boarded, it was the aviation authorities (at the request of United) who resorted to violence, to remove the individual. It's also worth considering that violence at the gate is more easily contained (minimising harm to anyone, including the perpetrator) than violence on a confined aircraft. It's also worth noting that in all of the video footage available, the individual shows no signs of violent behaviour.

2. The flight wasn't even overbooked. It appears to be a last-minute decision for United to ship crew to a new location, whilst also deciding to give the crew precedence over paying passengers, who had already boarded. There's been some suggestion that there is no legal precedence allowing them to do this.

I think the practice of "over-booking" is unduly taking the fall in this example, because the flight wasn't over-booked, and even an over-booked flight shouldn't create the circumstances for this type of harm.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#60

Post by tdb7893 »

EliRivers wrote: post #55
tdb7893 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that the guy refused to leave a private space, getting security or police to remove him seems like the solution to that problem in most other contexts. It's a different situation but if someone refused to leave my office they would definitely call the police

As you say, this is indeed a different situation. Here are their own rules on when they may remove a passenger from the plane. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag... None of them address this situation. They broke the contract of carriage (as well as, it appears, his nose; three bully boy police officers beat up a 69 year old man, who has committed no crime, at the request of an airline). Als…

I'm not sure of the legal terms but it's private in the same way that Disneyland or a store in the mall is private. There's a lot of people there but they obviously have the right to arbitrarily evict you. I've been kicked out of a store for just being too loud before
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