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How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

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Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#21

IMHO: The article is too much rage-laden. The much more interesting article comes beneath the one linked ( https://www.wired.com/2017/04/united-airlines-overbook-fligh... ). At the core doesn't seem to be evilness of capitalist corporations, but rather a) the economic usefulness of overbooking b) an uncooperative (ex-)customer (his refusal to leave being unlawful) c) an unqualified and brutal airport police d) the di…

> The property rights in this case are clear: the plane belongs to United Airlines, and the passenger’s ticket does not entitle him to a seat on the airplane in a situation like this where he is commanded to give it up due to overbooking.

It is exactly what booking a seat is: buying an entitlement to seat in that plane for that specific flight. Otherwise what's the point? I understand that overbooking can be useful for companies, but in that case they should just buy back the service they oversold. That's how markets work.

Property rights are not everything. What is protected in a market economy is the free transaction between two economic actors. United's property rights of the plane, of course (even though it's likely to be leased, anyway), but also the rights created by the contract between the carrier and the passenger. If you don't protect these rights, you have nothing like a functioning market economy. Capitalism relies on social structures able to protect rights.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#22

IMHO: The article is too much rage-laden. The much more interesting article comes beneath the one linked ( https://www.wired.com/2017/04/united-airlines-overbook-fligh... ). At the core doesn't seem to be evilness of capitalist corporations, but rather a) the economic usefulness of overbooking b) an uncooperative (ex-)customer (his refusal to leave being unlawful) c) an unqualified and brutal airport police d) the di…

Incidentally, according to one blog post I read[0], it's not actually so clear that they had the right to remove the customer. Apparently their contract reserves the right to refuse someone boarding if e.g. they are oversold. However, the contract also sets out a much more restricted set of circumstances for when a customer who _has_ boarded can be evicted, and none of those applies here. It seems like under a literal reading (he did board the plane, after all), he had the right to stay on the plane...

[0]: http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contrac...

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As per Matt Levine's newsletter on Bloomberg: " ... According to Bloomberg, four of United's top five shareholders are also top-five holders of American. Three of them are also top-five holders of Delta Air Lines Inc. United's top 10 holders own about 49.8 percent of United Stock between them -- and about 51.6 percent of American and 37.6 percent of Delta. American was up 3.8 percent yesterday. ... " As you can see,…

I think this particular incident will help, if only solely for the procedures around deplaning already seated passengers. Needs more analysis, but it sounds like the airlines are somewhat limited in invoking "interference with crew members" as a threat, since the door isn't yet closed. At a minimum, they're aware now of the potential PR backlash.

Sure, the same people get the money in the end, but if one of their 4-5 nearly-identical businesses takes a serious hit, and the others grow, then they're learned what the market is serious about.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#24
> "For the airlines, the opportunity costs really do add up. Itir Karaesmen Aydin, an American University researcher who has studied overbooking strategies in the airline and hotel industries, puts it this way: If a 100-seat airplane sells $200 tickets, and only 95 percent of passengers show up, the airline loses out on $1,000. (Even if the airline doesn’t refund those tickets, it could have sold five more seats for an extra $1,000.) “The major airlines in the United States fly thousands of flights every day,” Karaesmen Aydin says—even a few empty seats on every flight means losing millions in potential revenue every 24 hours."

This is infuriating to read. Having empty seats is not an "opportunity cost", you sold the damn seats, you made your money, that should be the end of it. It does not cost the airline a single thing to fly with empty seats, other than a blow to unchecked greed. If people don't make the plane they shouldn't get a refund, and I'd imagine that the vast majority do not, so literally the only thing being "lost" is the extra money they had no business making in the first place.

This is a sick symptom of our gone-mad capitalism. I love capitalism, it's done great things for us but the relentless pursuit of growth, profit, year after year straight in the face of reality, morals and common fucking sense is getting comically ridiculous.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#25

IMHO: The article is too much rage-laden. The much more interesting article comes beneath the one linked ( https://www.wired.com/2017/04/united-airlines-overbook-fligh... ). At the core doesn't seem to be evilness of capitalist corporations, but rather a) the economic usefulness of overbooking b) an uncooperative (ex-)customer (his refusal to leave being unlawful) c) an unqualified and brutal airport police d) the di…

Except I'm not sure that this is entirely accurate, as has been widely discussed.

United's own Contract of Carriage uses the term boarding and discusses overbooked flights: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag...

However, by all accounts (including the statement from Oscar Munoz) is that the Airline Employees needed to board after the customers had already boarded.

The simple matter is that United really doesn't have a policy in place for such an event, but they tried to treat is as an overbooking anyways, which is questionable.

If this had happened before the passenger got on there wouldn't have been much of a story - but United got themselves into a pickle by not having a procedure in place for moving their employees around when the plane was already loaded up and ready to go.

Strictly speaking, refusing to leave was a violation of the airline's rules, but they also didn't really have the right to eject him per their own Contract. You don't surrender all rights when you board a plane, and quite frankly it doesn't seem like United has a lot of ground to stand on when it comes to this particular incident. They didn't have a policy in place and tried to make another one fit, but it was an awkward fit at best.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#26
post #3

If we as consumers are voting with our wallets, in most cases we're the ones who have accepted the new norm as acceptable in the spirit of chasing ever lower fares. Consider the success of airlines like Ryanair which charges for every possible amenity and slight convenience. United Airlines has largely been the laggard in the industry in the past 5 years even though their stock price has risen 200%, that is 50% less…

This is the thing that always bothers me. By _far_, when (at least US domestic) travelers book flights, their main and often only consideration is ticket price. People claim to be annoyed by baggage fees, not being able to select their seat ahead of time, no or limited food, paid in-flight entertainment, overselling, etc., but they refuse to vote with their wallets and pay more for better service. We've made this bed…

The bar for basic service has dropped so far that you are no longer treated like a person if you don't pay for the extras. My wife and I saved up for a resort trip for our ten year anniversary only to find that our 4-hour flight included a seat without enough leg room for me to sit while the person in front of me reclined into my lap (I'm 6'2"). The passenger in front of me wanted to stay reclined and the flight attendant could only offer me a seat upgrade to sit by myself in a section with more leg room. Not my only bad experience with them but United was far worse than any other recent trip I've had.

We're pissed because they set the bar so low we have to trip on it. Those of us who don't fly often have no idea how bad it's gotten compared to how things used to be.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#27

IMHO: The article is too much rage-laden. The much more interesting article comes beneath the one linked ( https://www.wired.com/2017/04/united-airlines-overbook-fligh... ). At the core doesn't seem to be evilness of capitalist corporations, but rather a) the economic usefulness of overbooking b) an uncooperative (ex-)customer (his refusal to leave being unlawful) c) an unqualified and brutal airport police d) the di…

>a) the economic usefulness of overbooking

I realize that "overbook" can mean different things but United flight #3411 wasn't oversold to statistically offset no-shows. Instead, the plane had a capacity of 70 seats[1] and United sold all 70 seats to paying customers with zero cancellations. That's a perfect economic situation for United.

What went wrong was 4 extra United employees needed a last-minute ride on that plane to Kentucky. Since this is an HN audience, I guess we could frame it as a massive failure in the "information flow" through their computer reservations system.

The very second that United knew they had 4 employees they had to acccomodate, their computer system should have immediately confirmed those 4 employees on flight #3411 first such that the plane only shows 66 available seats instead of 70. (Computers doing math for the win!) That way, either 4 of the customers get denied a boarding pass at the check-in kiosk, or they get denied at the gate that scans the barcode before they enter the jetway. Instead, United let all 70 passengers board and settle in their seats.

If United insists that their employees take precedence over paying passengers, their damn computer systems need to reflect that reality in the seating database!

All of those opportunities to have the computer system "help" were missed that would have prevented the situation from escalating to a bloody face plastered all over the news.

[1] https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/United_Airlines/United_Air...

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#28

IMHO: The article is too much rage-laden. The much more interesting article comes beneath the one linked ( https://www.wired.com/2017/04/united-airlines-overbook-fligh... ). At the core doesn't seem to be evilness of capitalist corporations, but rather a) the economic usefulness of overbooking b) an uncooperative (ex-)customer (his refusal to leave being unlawful) c) an unqualified and brutal airport police d) the di…

>See https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/united-airlines-video-pas.... for why United had every right to remove the customer.

I don't see anything compelling there. The only somewhat legal word is "property rights".

It doesn't mention the "common carrier laws" that may be involved here, and likely override any "property rights." I suspect we'll see more enlightened debate soon as aviation attorneys start talking about it.

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#29
post #3

If we as consumers are voting with our wallets, in most cases we're the ones who have accepted the new norm as acceptable in the spirit of chasing ever lower fares. Consider the success of airlines like Ryanair which charges for every possible amenity and slight convenience. United Airlines has largely been the laggard in the industry in the past 5 years even though their stock price has risen 200%, that is 50% less…

This is the thing that always bothers me. By _far_, when (at least US domestic) travelers book flights, their main and often only consideration is ticket price. People claim to be annoyed by baggage fees, not being able to select their seat ahead of time, no or limited food, paid in-flight entertainment, overselling, etc., but they refuse to vote with their wallets and pay more for better service. We've made this bed…

Exactly. As a mostly business traveler, I'd be delighted if there were no options other than business class service with champagne and caviar for dinner. (OK, I generally prefer beer and I'm not a huge caviar fan but the principle still applies.)

But most people traveling for personal reasons (and many traveling on business) choose or are required to choose the rock bottom price which results in not only stripped down amenities but also a general focus on cutting operational costs to the bone.

Furthermore, the big legacy carriers are still generally more attractive to regular business travelers because of their loyalty programs which insulate them from at least some of the worst aspects brought on by competition on price. (In that they get a somewhat better class of service without paying for it directly.)

Re: How United Airlines Went from “Friendly Skies” to Throwing People Off Flights

#30
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't talk about busting up near-monopolies without first considering the market environment which created those near-monopolies. I don't see too many people asking how we got here in the first place. Without those questions (for which I have no answers) we're doomed to end right back up here.

The whole point of capitalism is that you solve those problems from the bottom up, not from the top down. Pick one.

Are you confusing the free market with capitalism here? Capital is striving to destroy competition; in a truly free market, consumers will counterbalance that if it is not in their interest (e.g. favor smaller airlines that give better service).
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