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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#61

Post by letitleak »

frankquist wrote: post #38
scarmig wrote: post #15

Anyone have a take on how successful this is likely to be? Both sides are claiming victory and that they've beaten the other side, naturally. Propaganda is everywhere. The only thing I figure is that since Erdogan is calling for a mass uprising in the streets, the status quo has him losing. He needs to radically change the dynamics of the situation to stay in power, and mass protests and displays of martyrdom in the…

This assumes Erdogan is rational or that he would be quite concerned with the lives of those going outside (something which could be true, but his dealings with earlier uprisings give me doubt). Mass protests against the coup (even if Erdogan is on the winning hand) could solidify his support and give a signal to the military that future coups might not be succesful.

His moves certainly show that he doesn't care about anyone but himself and his power. When he arrested parts of the military during their coup practices he created this situation of violence. If he stepped down as more rational PMs did when given hints, he would be living in luxury but in house arrest or exile. The other path is a smaller less official coup, and that ends in his death and longer term instability from the poor and unpredictable transfers of power without the legitimacy of the generals..

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#62

Post by jnbiche »

J_Darnley wrote: post #53
aerovistae wrote: post #47

Mods: Why do you delete news posts like this one? I understand you're trying to keep Hacker News tech/business/science focused, maybe, but don't you think major world events that are getting tons of interest should be allowed to float up to the front page on their own merit? If the users are interested in it, why is it being deleted? I feel like major events like yesterday's massacre in Nice or today coup d'état meri…

It isn't mods killing off these stories, it is users like me flagging them.

EDIT: I was mistaken re: username, apologies.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#63

Post by gkya »

einrealist wrote: post #46

It is bad that a (mostly) democratic elected government is (tried to be) removed this way. This will make it really difficult to work with whoever is in power, internationally. But Erdogan forced this on the military. They were told to stand down against ISIS and to fight a new impossible-to-win fight against the kurdish minority. I really hope the situation will somehow calm down. Otherwise we could have a new civil…

The elections however were a great mess. On the first election on 7th june 15 AKP was 40%, but opposition failed to form coalition and Erdogan abused power as head of state to fill up 45 days w/o a new govt so that elections would be repeated. So happened, elections were to be repeated on 10th november the same year, and in the meantime the war on PKK started, major attacks by ISIS happened, and people feared unstability and voted for AKP. The two of the parties that could have formed a coalition are MHP, the turkish extremist-nationalists, and HDP, kurdish socialist-nationalists, so not all that compatible. Also, the legality of those last elections are doubted. Since the beginnings of this decade, we're an extremely polarised society, with more than two poles, and any issue is extremely complex. This last madness will augment all these problems, and if it fails, it won't be like in the past the same. "A stick with two shitty ends," we say.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#64

Post by hasenj »

cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

It's not the policy per se as much as the agenda and the nationalism.

Humans are tribal creatures.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#65

Post by dragonwriter »

ugh123 wrote: post #50
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

>A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Sounds a lot like Iran, although their "democratic arm" is very much a farce.

Sounds more like the US. Turkey's unelected group which intervenes when the elected government violates established norms consists of officers ultimately appointed by (and who can be removed by) the elected organs of government .

Same as in the US, though for us it's the judicial branch rather than the military.

Now, there's a pretty enormous difference, both in abstract structure and practice, between the US and Turkey here, but it's still a close analogy than the Turkey-Iran one, IMO.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#66

Post by gunn »

scarmig wrote: post #15

Anyone have a take on how successful this is likely to be? Both sides are claiming victory and that they've beaten the other side, naturally. Propaganda is everywhere. The only thing I figure is that since Erdogan is calling for a mass uprising in the streets, the status quo has him losing. He needs to radically change the dynamics of the situation to stay in power, and mass protests and displays of martyrdom in the…

Too early to call, but I'd put my money against the coup succeeding:

Al Jazeera - "Turkey 1st army commander Umit Dundar on TV says army does not support coup". Assuming he's fully in charge there, that represents 120,000 army personnel.

Also the opposition party is anti-coup and plenty of people are on the streets (presumably) in support of the government.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#68

Post by delazeur »

nostrademons wrote: post #33
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

The U.S. separation of power is based on similar ideas. Congress makes laws on a day-by-day basis, but when the will of the people contradicts certain fundamental principles enshrined in the Constitution, the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws.

> the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws

Notably, this power does not appear in the Constitution. See Marbury v. Madison [1]. (Not that it makes a practical difference, but it is interesting to see how our conception of government powers and the basic government structure changes over time, even without new constitutional amendments.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#69

Post by pdx »

cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory.

Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#70

Post by tremon »

r00fus wrote: post #57
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

Or they see the coup as endangering the economic situation which could lead to more job-losses and the like. Let's be honest, would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis?

In a way, 52% of British citizens would/did.
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