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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#591

Post by sjwright »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #584
sjwright wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. Elon's Tesla stock isn't Tesla's to give away to its employees.

Tesla regularly compensates Elon with stock. In 2018, for example, Tesla gave him options valued at $2.282 billion — with a “b” [1]. That’s over four million percent more than the median employee’s total compensation. But he’d rather union bust than be a slightly less rich centibillionaire. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/business/highest-pa...

That's a non sequitur. What you have cited isn't Tesla giving its employees Elon's Tesla shares. Yes, Tesla did offer Elon share options. He still has to pay for them with his own money. The reason why these options are lucrative is precisely because the company (funded substantially by Elon placing his own wealth on the line) has risen under his stewardship.

Great, so bring a union in. Maybe median wages will briefly jump 10% or so in response to threats. Within five years the median wage probably won't be any higher. Probably lower if union action rattles investor confidence and Tesla's access to capital shrinks, leading to less future investment, in turn leading to less profit and fewer jobs at the company.

With all this talk of bringing in a bloated Detroit union bureaucracy into Fremont, you might as well plead with Tesla to focus less on US manufacturing over the next decade. Yay, everyone wins!

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#593

Post by eru »

URSpider94 wrote: post #147
eru wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by less bargaining power? As an individual I feel like I have relatively more bargaining power, because when eg talking about pay I just need to convince the company to bump one total comp package, mine. So I can negotiate much more aggressively and get more done, then someone who tried to get the company to raise thousands of pay packages. Also, I have an easy time convincing the company that I am l…

Unions threaten that all employees will quit all.the.time. It’s called a strike. It’s their primary bargaining power. Yes, the workers will eventually come back to work, but only after they gain some concessions from management, and it can be a long time before they come back.

I know about strikes. They are different than everyone quitting.

> Yes, the workers will eventually come back to work, but only after they gain some concessions from management, and it can be a long time before they come back.

Workers don't get paid while on strike (they get some money back from the union that they saved there themselves). There's no guarantee that management will make concessions.

Yes, it can be a long time before workers come back.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#594

Post by eru »

viraptor wrote: post #170
eru wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare and contrast https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/10/02/ijd/

I'm curious what you wanted to point out? (It's a really interesting read either way)

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Mostly I wanted to give a bit more historic context. Japan is arguably a more productive economy and a better place to live than India, and Pseudoerasmus suggests that this is at least partly because labour was not able to mount as effective a defense as in India.

To belabour that point: Fred says at https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LABSHPINA156NRUG that the labour share of GDP in India is something above 50%.

Japan is also something above 50%: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LABSHPJPA156NRUG

India's GDP per capita is about 1.9k USD. The number for Japan is about 40k USD.

So even in the hypothetical world where Indian labour would somehow be so strong it would capture 100% of GDP, that would still be only about 10% of what Japanese workers get.

Now, of course, any nuanced argument will take into account that labour suppression wasn't the only difference between Japan and India.

But the important thing is that this shifts the context of the argument: instead of a knee-jerk attitude of 'unions are obviously good for workers in the long run', we have some more explaining to do.

(With sufficient mental gymnastics, you might stil be able to argue that unions and strong labour in general is good for standard of living. But at least now you have to engage in that gymnastics.)

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#595

Post by eru »

dragonwriter wrote: post #132
eru wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recognizing the conflict between labor and capital as a real and significant factor in capitalist society, and [...] Nah, the real conflict, if any, is labor and capital vs land.

That was certainly true under feudalism, which is probably why the modern capitalist center-to-right and pro-labor/socialist left all have roots in classical liberalism. But as capital has matured, capital as a class has effectively subsumed the landed class, largely by driving land into fee-simple ownership.

Land value taxes are still very much important.

Henry George wrote his analysis not under feudalism, but in the US.

See eg https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2015/07/22/piketty-... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#596

Post by eru »

cloudfifty wrote: post #178
eru wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Be glad you aren't sitting in total darkness: I am praying every morning that the sun goes up. Sunlight is a privilege you enjoy now, whether you are joining my prayers or not. (Correlation ain't causation.)

Are you suggesting that the labour movement is actually not the cause of (western-)Europe's significantly better labour/welfare laws than the US - which unsurprisingly happens to never had a European-style mass labour movement?

I'm not sure about 'better'. They have different laws.

American workers do enjoy a better standard of living than European workers.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#597

Post by eru »

mnsc wrote: post #186
eru wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by less bargaining power? As an individual I feel like I have relatively more bargaining power, because when eg talking about pay I just need to convince the company to bump one total comp package, mine. So I can negotiate much more aggressively and get more done, then someone who tried to get the company to raise thousands of pay packages. Also, I have an easy time convincing the company that I am l…

> I just need to convince the company to bump one total comp package, mine > ... > Also, I have an easy time convincing the company that I am leaving (or not joining), if they don't accede to my demands. And when your aggressive negotiating is too much of a hassle for the company they just have to fire one "problematic" employee, you. And unless you have created a hellhole of a system architecture in your project tha…

To be honest, I do most of the aggressive negotiations before I join the company.

So if that's too 'problematic' for them, they don't need to hire me.

If you want to negotiate just as aggressively while working for them, you have to have your outside options all lined up. Basically, yes, if you threaten to leave, you should not be surprised if they call your bluff and take wish you farewell.

Always be aware of your BATNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat... and make sure it's a good one.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#598

Post by eru »

evgen wrote: post #247
eru wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it depends a bit on whether you talk about real world US unions like the UAW, or about what unions could be in theory and might be in other parts of the world. Eg German unions have a reputation, at least compared to the US, of cooperating much more with their host companies. Similar also for Scandinavian unions.

It could also be the case that US unions operate in a country where power is held by a class of people who would really prefer their serfs to STFU and get back to whatever dangerous, ill-paid task they were assigned. When the most egregious wrongs are simply illegal and never happen then it is much easier for capital and labor to have a less adversarial relationship, but when you operate in a country like the US I wo…

Oh, German unions have their problems as well.

> It could also be the case that US unions operate in a country where power is held by a class of people who would really prefer their serfs to STFU and get back to whatever dangerous, ill-paid task they were assigned.

What makes you think European business owners are less greedy or evil? Capital is internationally mobile, and it's the same index funds owning a good chunk of all companies everywhere, too.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#599

Post by mat7447 »

LB232323 wrote: post #572

Labor was once fighting for their rights with rifles and unprecedented multicultural unity. Workers knew their enemy very clearly and knew how to attain their goals. The alternative was starvation and corporate enslavement. Now the concern is deleting tweets. Embourgeoisiement has slowed and confused the struggle of labor. The reckoning of the owner class is long overdue, as evidenced by this typical hubris. In today…

[flagged]

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#600

Post by entropea »

mat7447 wrote: post #599
LB232323 wrote: post #572

Labor was once fighting for their rights with rifles and unprecedented multicultural unity. Workers knew their enemy very clearly and knew how to attain their goals. The alternative was starvation and corporate enslavement. Now the concern is deleting tweets. Embourgeoisiement has slowed and confused the struggle of labor. The reckoning of the owner class is long overdue, as evidenced by this typical hubris. In today…

[flagged]

Please use good faith arguments.
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