Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out • Hacker News Board

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#581

Post by mr_hudson » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 5:20 AM UTC

quoteshimself wrote: post #571

wmt wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While everyone is riled up about Adria Richards getting offended and publicly shaming the person who made a joke about big dongles, you should keep in mind that she did not fire anyone. PlayHaven did. PlayHaven could have decided to be the responsible party and handle the incident constructively, but they did not want to do that. Even Adria, who still appears to think that the public shaming was a good thing to do, a…

You're right. The company should have practiced a little rationality instead of instantly reacting. But she should be held responsible above all because she took offense to a joke instead of taking it to superiors or confronting the guy, she posted it for all to see and read. Her actions did lead to his firing regardless of the company's questionable decision. You don't publicly humiliate someone for something so sma…

and the dude acknowledged what he said was inappropriate, i just think the company may have been quick to fire, imho. if this was big corporation, they would have a session with HR for sensitivity training and put the dude on probationary terms and then everyone would go out for happy hour.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#582

Post by naasking » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 5:27 AM UTC

Zoonie wrote: post #551

tobych wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Hopefully she can get some therapy and learn how better to deal with her triggers.

Heavy sigh. This is the crux of the matter, people. The NSPCC in the UK reports that 30% of girls (and I think you can therefore extend that to women) admit to having been subjected to sexualised assault. And that's admit . Who knows what the true figure is. As your female friends, or indeed, if you are female, have you yourself been assaulted? Now, imagine for a moment sitting in a conference, which is a known space…

> You really have to wake up, guys. Wake Up. It's not you, who are spending your lives looking over your shoulders. It really isn't. So. Whilst I do not agree it was the best of actions, I wholly defend the right of anyone to take it. And will therefore stand by them if they do.

I just want to highlight that you're supporting an exaggerated public shaming for people who were just exchanging words in a semi-private conversation. Not even particularly offensive words at that. Words that are and were clearly misconstrued.

And you defend this behaviour because many women suffer sexual abuse? Tell me, should preachers be forbidden from speaking in public because some people were caned by priests as children too? Should visible minorities be cautious around everyone because some people have been mugged by black men?

Joking around is immature, particularly sexist and racist humour, but it's not irresponsible. Suggesting that public witch-hunts are the way to solve these problems is just plain irresponsible.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#583

Post by flaviusb » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:08 AM UTC

bobwaycott wrote: post #497

flaviusb wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a double standard, because the situations are not symmetrical.

It is a double standard and a symmetrical situation because sexism is sexism. Outside of, say, stand-up comedy and similar entertainment, sexist comments have no place. If a man, woman, or transgendered person is inappropriately making remarks at the expense of another person because of their gender , it should not be accepted. I wanted to admit that I, too, fail, and wrongly contextualize female-sourced sexism in a…

If person A has power and person B does not, then A exerting their power against B and B exerting their (lack of) power against A are not symmetrical situations, even though both A and B are people. The 'instance level' sexist act may be the same in both cases, but the problem is the 'structural level' sexism which is reinforced only by one of those acts. So, saying that 'sexism is sexism' is an equivocation, and not a symmetrical situation. Does that make things clearer?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#584

Post by jhales » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:14 AM UTC

zallen wrote: post #550

pythonuser wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you. In my opinion, she came across as a cyberbully. And its not the first time, apparently. In 2009, she was accused of hacking someone's website who was running for political office. She apparently discovered that by looking at the cached version of the site, she obtained the ip address of the site and was able to look through the directory and found a database file. While she did not repost…

Wait, she looked at the cached version of the site and found the IP address? My stars! What a hacker! (not even nslookup?) They left a database backup in a publically-accessible web folder with directory listings turned on?! That's shocking. And that's not "hacking." Finding that file wouldn't take very long or very much diligence, and zero illegal access or any sketchy scripts or even much poking-around. I'm not sur…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5419915

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#585

Post by lilly26 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:25 AM UTC

adriarichards wrote: post #27

mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

Why were you too afraid to confront them directly and privately about your concerns? You smiled at them when you too the picture...

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#586

Post by flaviusb » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:43 AM UTC

antihero wrote: post #102

colabug wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out this blog, does a great job of explaining the frustrations of subtle sexism. "You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the first thing I've had to dea…

Yes but dongle jokes and forking jokes aren't sexist in any way.

Can you even read?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#587

Post by dinkumthinkum » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:45 AM UTC

zobzu wrote: post #562

mnicole wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully you are still reading the comments here as I'm just catching up on all of this and watching how it is continuing to unfold. Please don't apologize. As other women before me already have, I want to apologize for this incident; honestly I probably would have been giggling myself if I was in an earshot of you. With respect to Adria's past and her sensitivity to the triggers she refers to, a comment like this i…

I don't think it has a lot to do with the gender, to be honest, but with the person. And yeah, Adria is what I consider a bad person. Could be male, female, whatever. So, you don't have to apologize either.

Adria is a fraud: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/31226509179184742...

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#588

Post by flaviusb » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:48 AM UTC

antihero wrote: post #118

colabug wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classy, first you imply that I don't like sex and now that I'm a moron. Boy am I glad that we don't work together. I like sex, I just happen to prefer my work/professional environments without sexual overtones.

Conferences are generally laid back environments. Of course sexist exclusionary shit that assumes conference goers are male is wrong, but making a totally non-sexist joke to your mate in a talk? Fuck that shit.

Conferences are generally professional environments, which means that some degree of strictures on behaviour is normal. Conferences that are trying to be welcoming to groups that historically have found them unwelcoming try to limit the things that make them unwelcoming. Things like 'Dongle jokes' have been identified as one of those things. The Pythonic way is 'explicit over implicit'. So, Pycon's code of conduct. Can you understand this?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#589

Post by whiterabbit2 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 7:11 AM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #415

truthtacular wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see value in both this comment and the one it answers. I'm just kind of trying to put myself in the position of sitting there in that audience, in my professional capacity (and probably in uncomfortable shoes...), and hearing "puerile" and "juvenile" jokes being whispered right behind me, possibly also with some muffled laughter. Since I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down. But I can at least imagine how th…

When I was in middle and high school I was teased relentlessly also. I'm male so the teasing directed at me was not about my breasts, but it was still very vicious teasing. I know exactly what you mean when you say "laughter can be super cruel". I still get a chill when I hear people laughing in the way I was laughed at, even when its not direct at me, even when its not direct at anyone but just sounds the same way.…

I agree. However I still don't see how a "dongle" joke (regardless of conference policies) makes it to "sexism towards women" as appeared on the Richards' blog. I think the point is to say "I myself am not comfortable with this kinds of jokes, stop it". But making gender generalizations and "taking actions for the community"... well, this is sexist towards women and assumes no personal responsibility. I'm a woman, but I didn't appoint any "evangelist" to speak for me. It's actually more alienating then any off color jokes.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#590

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 7:19 AM UTC

law_mclawyerson wrote: post #428

jodrellblank wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you would lose. > In the United States [..] consent is not as a rule required to photograph people in public places and publish those photos. Hence, unless there are specific local laws to the contrary, overriding legal concerns (e.g., defamation) or moral concerns (e.g., picture unfairly obtained) [..] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_ide...

False, false false! Try getting away from Wiki and read your local laws. PyCon happend in California, which is so ubersensitive about privacy that even call centers and debt collectors have to inform you and recieve consent to record your conversations. Having been a vidographer and photographer for bands in and around California, it's a pain in the ass all the legal forms and releases you need to obtain in order to…

My local laws would be irrelevant, I'm in another country, which is why I can't take your comment apart very easily.

But paying extras sounds like publishing likenesses in commercial work, which is (AFAIK) usually under a different part of law than publishing noncommercial photos.

And recording conversations on the phone is nothing to do with anything pictorial, that comes under telephony and wiretapping laws.

And "official disciplinary capacity"? What does that mean? What office was she holding what discipline did she decide on?

Harrasment? Overhearing? Troops rallying? Responsibility to talk? All irrelevant to picture publishing, I suspect.