Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#581

Post by KaiserPro » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:10 PM UTC

8A51C wrote: post #320

KaiserPro wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can provide better protection for both sides by requiring written and recorded contracts for real property use/rental, just as we do for real property sales today. In england there is the "Assured shorthold tenancy agreement" which basically provides a set of rights to tenants and landlords. On the one hand its great as it sets out a clear set of expectations for tenants (24 hours notice of landlord visiting, c…

Just to be clear, a tenant cannot be kicked out after a month. A section 21 notice requires a tenant to hand back possesion in 2 months, if a tenant does not the landlord may make an application to court for a possession order (which WILL be granted if all process followed correctly),the order is served and then if a tenant still doesn't relinquish possession a landlord may apply for an eviction warrant, this gives t…

Sorry thank you for providing a much better and accurate overview of the law. It is most appreciated.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#582

Post by hiatus » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:13 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #220

lm28469 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same in France so I wouldn't even be surprised. You can't even cut electricity/heat as it is seen inhumane and in theory you have to renovate/fix the house every time something dangerous needs to be fixed because it's illegal to provide unsafe housing. Sometimes it takes years for people to get their house back and they often are completely trashed

All you said is wrong. France, like Spain, has strong residence protection for anyone, including homeowners. So if someone takes your house while you are away it is not legally squatting, but rather homebreaking and they will be evicted without even a trial. If a house you own gets squatted you may stop paying for electricity/gaz/water. But to be honest apart from big corps abandoned buildings, i've never seen a squa…

> So if someone takes your house while you are away it is not legally squatting, but rather homebreaking and they will be evicted without even a trial.

At least in the US there have been cases where the squatter forged a lease and showed that to police that came to evict them. With the scant evidence the police would deem it a civil matter and you have to go to court. I'm not sure what the process is in Spain though.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#583

Post by hgomersall » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:13 PM UTC

AlbertoGP wrote: post #525

hgomersall wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said every tyrant ever.

Isn’t a tyrant someone that is above the law, not subject to the rule of law like other citizens?

Sure, but using the law as a basis for oppression is straight out of the tyrants handbook.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#584

Post by roncesvalles » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #392

Aurornis wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

Squatters fight against private property which is usually protected by law, it's very rare that it goes the other direction. A lot of squatters want to abolish the possibility of someone having to pay rent to another person to have a place to live, considering that relation inherently oppressive and against a self-ownership of the individual.

Then they should squat on an empty clearing in the forest and build a house themselves.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#585

Post by blackhawkC17 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #526

blackhawkC17 wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiapas is the poorest and most backward state in Mexico [1]. There's nothing worth emulating in it. 1- https://growthlab.hks.harvard.edu/publications/why-chiapas-p...

Yeah, Zapatistas have much higher standard of living than other people that live in Chiapas, which is impressive. You have to always consider local conditions and if you can see that certain ideas help some part of some territory develop better then alternatives then it's a strong argument for them. Especially considering that rebels are fighting against colonially motivated genocide.

> Yeah, Zapatistas have much higher standard of living than other people that live in Chiapas, which is impressive.

Of course, the corrupt ruling bandits always enjoy a higher standard of living than their subjects. The same story in every anarchist and communist society.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#586

Post by jjav » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:30 PM UTC

kaskakokos wrote: post #419

Aurornis wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

Living in Spain, I have friends from both ends of the spectrum: those speculating with houses and those who cannot afford to buy one. We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum: people buying property purely for speculative investment. For example, consider the housing crisis in Majorca [1]. Since we have enough mo…

> But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum

No, not really. Theft is not the answer.

Consider laws restricting how many houses a person can own, or maybe an increasing property tax on each unit. These are good solutions.

Condoning theft has no other side to the story, it's always wrong.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#587

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:31 PM UTC

blackhawkC17 wrote: post #585

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Zapatistas have much higher standard of living than other people that live in Chiapas, which is impressive. You have to always consider local conditions and if you can see that certain ideas help some part of some territory develop better then alternatives then it's a strong argument for them. Especially considering that rebels are fighting against colonially motivated genocide.

> Yeah, Zapatistas have much higher standard of living than other people that live in Chiapas, which is impressive. Of course, the corrupt ruling bandits always enjoy a higher standard of living than their subjects. The same story in every anarchist and communist society.

Zapatistas are organized Indigenous Americans, they are fighting against genocide. Why for you people who fight for their own survival are bandits? Do you think that people who were committing the genocide are fine? Do you approve of genocide of Indigenous Americans? If so, then that's disgusting.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#588

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:32 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #558

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people you disagree with extremists is just an insult and it's not nice. It's rude. There is nothing extremists about fighting for a world where no one is oppressed and everyone can develop to the heights of one's potential.

Who said I disagree with it? I'm just self aware enough to know where on the spectrum my own ideals, morals and opinions are.

Are fine with oppression and exploitation of other humans? Is that okay according to your morals and ideals?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#589

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #554

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the notion of buying a plot. No one should ever have to pay for an empty plot of land.

OK, so you dont buy the plot and just build two houses on them. How does that change your logic.

How do you deal with a situation where some people don't have any land anymore to put their houses there?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#590

Post by jjav » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #434

s1artibartfast wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to pay for a place to live is simply theft and entitlement. They expect people to build and maintain homes for them while doing nothing in return. If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can. These misguided ideologies can only live parasitic ally on the fringe of a otherwise functional society. If they got their way, the society would…

For most of our history humans did not have to pay for a piece of land to put up some yurt or hut and live there. How is the current system not strong taking whatever they can? Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival. It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation,…

> For most of our history humans did not have to pay for a piece of land to put up some yurt or hut and live there.

In those same times, anyone that wandered by who was stronger could simply kill them and take over the yurt, until someone stronger showed and killed them in turn.

Not a great way to live, and not a very long life.