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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#581

Post by [deleted] »

timdaub wrote: post #399
worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

No, it's not totalitarian. In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. Not even the state. Go to your doctor to get an attest that exempts you from the mandatory vaccination. Nothing easier than that in Germany. And again: You are just speculating. Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves…

[deleted]

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#582

Post by basisword »

timdaub wrote: post #291

Tons of misinformation and bullshit numbers as top comments here. Scary to witness. HN, be aware, this is how fake news spreads. Please stay safe and double check numbers in case the sources are dubious or missing.

It’s pretty shocking the number of contradictory comments from people on both sides of the argument. I wonder if this is a case of a lot of “smart” people knowing a little but thinking they know it all.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#583

Post by jokethrowaway »

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Honestly, I think it's time we start splitting countries.

I don't want to live in the same country as people like you who have no concern about human rights, freedom and individualism.

I don't want a majority controlled with biased media and internet to decide for my life.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#584

Post by omegaworks »

elorant wrote: post #274
locallost wrote: post #127

As a foreigner living in Germany I could live with it if there were otherwise sound measures, but it's mostly been a bunch of wishful thinking. There was a rush last summer to open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early and a lot of people really understood it as "corona is over". Even this I could understand, but this year they do the same thing again! Surprise, surprise that there is a…

No democratic country is built to handle something like a pandemic. That much became clear the last two years. You need to be able to mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties that we have learn to consider as standard.

Vietnam had zero covid deaths until summer of 2020.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#585

Post by _ph_ »

gojomo wrote: post #484
worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

Vaccinations are too leaky to "make this virus extinct". Within a few months of vaccination, half or more of people can get mild, but still transmissable, cases of Delta. (Omicron is likely worse; there are already multiple reports of mild cases among those with recent 3rd booster shots.) Honest epidemiologists have been warning about this risk since 2020, and more forcefully when confirmed by early vax results in 20…

First of all, there are many millions in Germany, who are neither vaccinated nor recovered (if you have medical proof of recovery, like a positive PCR test in the past, you are treated like a vaccinated person for 6 months). So there are millions which can still be hit by full force. As a consequence, get sick, require ICU care. In some parts of Germany, all ICU beds are currently occupied, patients moved to other parts of the country as we speak. That is the critical situation at the moment. Also, all data available shows, that unvaccinated people are spreading the virus faster than vaccinated people. Those two parts in combination create a situation, where the unvaccinated part of the population do mainly contribute to the severity of things. That is, why the majority of the population cares about high vaccination counts.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#586

Post by switch007 »

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

Same story in UK (and about bed numbers in general).

"The total number of NHS hospital beds in England has more than halved over the past 30 years, from around 299,000 in 1987/88 to 141,000 in 2019/20, while the number of patients treated has increased significantly." [0]

[0] https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-n...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#587

Post by ipaddr »

oezi wrote: post #458
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

No, we should have strived to get everyone vaccinated (by making it mandatory) and then this pandemic would be over in Europe. "Opening up" would have killed more people than it killed in the UK. The people driving this wave, who are getting seriously ill and dying are the unvaccinated.

How would you enforce this mandatory vaccine? Would you go as far as killing the unvaccinated?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#588

Post by ghoward »

Invictus0 wrote: post #529
atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

The legality of the government forcing a medical procedure for the common good been decided by the supreme Court nearly 100 years ago. There is no specific "liberty" that is being violated here.

That decision revolved around a one-time $150 fine (in today's money) and was used to justify forced sterilizations. And it was overturned later. And it was for the authority of a state, not the Federal Government.

Not the same thing at all.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#589

Post by s1artibartfast »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #513
TacticalCoder wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60%…

> 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people Though correct, this is a dumb statistic used to peddle antivax propaganda. As vaccination rates rise, this number also rises. If 100% of people were vaccinated, 100% of all Covid ICU patients would be vaccinated. Spain has quite high vaccination rates, which is why this ratio is so high there.

The point is that if the majority of ICU beds are filled with vaccinated, you cant scapegoat the unvaccinated for your ICU shortage. If they aren't hurting anyone but themselves, who cares!

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#590

Post by lb0 »

worik wrote: post #388
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing them to comply is probably a cure worse than the disease - even a disease like COVID

Yeah, please please come here and find a way to "unloose" these people, I'm out of clue. We have a lot of failures here in Germany that surface, everything is too slow, from bad organization to corruption (like most western democracies), behind in digitalization, behind in taking the right measures, slow decisions even after 2 years into this pandemic situation.. true, a big chance to clear up and maybe hopefully do better in the future.

But those people (the last 10-20% radical idiotic percent that drives the rest forward)? I really start hating my country and fellow citizens, so many spoiled brats living in prosperity, complaining about everything, believing in total bullshit, it is unbelievable. If you attempt your best in an open and honest discussion, you are called a liar with the first word that comes out of your mouth....

> Want a war? That’s what you’re going to get if you persist with this paranoid hypochondriac fascism.

That's a perfect description for those people, not the vaccination, phew..if we get a war it will be by further catering to the far right. And btw, most of these people who go demoing right now (except the few violent far right ones that are under them), I bet most have never been to a real demonstration in their lives - now standing up for their personal party freedom while limiting the freedom of everyone else - again and again.

And btw please.. everyone who gets triggered by the word "lockdown" get your facts right first - there are lockdowns and there are lockdowns. We had very strict lockdowns over the last year in most our neighbors (e.g. France, Italy, Spain) - fines when you went out on the street at the wrong times .. we in Germany were up to that once close, though I believe noone here ever got fined for anything.

What we discuss and have as "lockdown" right now in Germany is actually just the "lockdown of the unvaccinated" - means 2G in shops that are not essential - oh yeah, poor unvaccinated crowd cannot go Christmas shopping, while health personal is crying for help, ERs and intensive cares are filling up, and a newspaper already appealed to stop driving unless totally necessary, because of injury risk.

Yeah sorry, I'm totally fed up :( Read too much on twitter and also here again, and I feel also a little bad and dizzy. Have been waiting 1h in the cold and another hour inside today to get my booster shot - bad organized Germany, again, but not complaining today! I'm happy to see so many people still trying to do their littlest part to relieve the health care workers and try to help get the hospitals some space for people that really need it for reasons that couldn't be avoided. And a little proud to be part of it - In that sense, the dizzyness is appreciated and better than a Feierabendbeer, the injected chip is working, the 5G in my brain is getting activated and well welcomed. gn8

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