I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#581

Post by toast0 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

mc10 wrote: post #525

toast0 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. Look, if it's ok to say don't buy nvidia graphics cards and expect to use Wayland, why is it not ok to say don't buy mixed DPI and expect to use X11? Mixed DPI is a giant PITA, and high DPI is also a PITA, so just buy regular DPI monitors that are about similar. :P

> Look, if it's ok to say don't buy nvidia graphics cards and expect to use Wayland, why is it not ok to say don't buy mixed DPI and expect to use X11? It’s still a hard sell when everything just works on Windows and macOS. It’s yet another reason why someone won’t pick up Linux when 90% of the features they want are present.

People complain about mixed DPI all the time on macOS and Windows too. It works better, but it still doesn't just work. If you want things to just work, you'll have less fiddling to do if you get similar DPI monitors.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#582

Post by Macha » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

cycloptic wrote: post #559

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.

Because the user they were hostile to were the users that had been until then the majority of Gnome's users. It may be a good business move to ditch your existing userbase in favour of a potential larger one but the userbase you've moved on from have no obligation to be happy about that

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#583

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

KingOfCoders wrote: post #552

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

I was working at a large real estate marketplace. Product management came up with a nice new UI for the backend every two months, because that was what they loved to do - also lots of designers hanging around that need to work! Real estate broker - the customers - hated it of course, they only wanted to get their job done, not relearn the UI every two months.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#584

Post by volgar1x » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538

patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

Rule of thumb: do not listen to the vocal minority, code for all the satisfied and silent customers.

Edit: unless there is a majority of unsatisfied customers (:

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#585

Post by cycloptic » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

irishsultan wrote: post #534

cycloptic wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is one of the major reasons, and this is indeed a privileged operation that should not be accessible by all clients. The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots.

> The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots. I'm unsure what kind of graphical environment you can imagine where screenshots are not useful at all (if only to capture the screen when something weird is going on).

There are numerous other graphical environments that Linux runs on where screenshots don't make sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_on_embedded_systems

For debugging purposes, the display server can just dump the screen to a file or a serial port itself. The only reason you would need this in the protocol is so other arbitrary applications could capture the screen.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#586

Post by spion » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #537

spion wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once there are 2 implementations already, a 3rd reusable one won't fix the problem (the problem being that the users need to configure everything in 3 places). What you want at that point is to agree where to read and write common configuration. I'm not sure this is likely to happen either, as gnome has gsettings/dconf and kde has simple files and you will now awaken the plaintext vs efficiency dragon.

Config file converters are completely outside of the wheelhouse of the graphics team. Anyone can step up and build those without any graphics programming knowledge.

No, its not a programming problem, its a herding problem. That person will have to have the ability to get all 3 implementations to agree to read and write compositing configuration the same way, so users don't have to suffer.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#587

Post by zamadatix » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

spion wrote: post #544

zamadatix wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a sway thing more than a Wayland thing and a PR for it was made back in March https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/pull/2064 Edit: but not merged yet :/ Also it's (ironically) an X11 related issue which shows up do to XWayland backwards compatibility, not something new with Wayland. Chrome also since supports Wayland natively so the workaround in that PR isn't even needed for it anymore. Electron is still a bit…

From the user's perspective, if they get blurry Electron apps, they get blurry Electron apps. Its not a win if you don't get to use the win.

An X11 presented app having DPI issues not solved by copying that up through XWayland (X11) is not a lose on Wayland's part but the apps working with multi-monitor fractional DPI awareness on Wayland are definitely wins.

The aforementioned workaround would make some X11 use cases work but not all, because X11 has no way to do multi-monitor fractional DPI awareness without rescaling so there is only so much hack workaround you can do in the meantime.

But there's no need to rush users to it just because it can work. IMO let Electron and whatnot get updated in the meantime so it's a smoother transition.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#588

Post by slackfan » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

Maybe if you stopped baselessly accusing me of all sorts of random shit, I would be more willing to listen to what your project has to say.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#589

Post by GoOnThenDoTell » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

_0w8t wrote: post #473

nescioquid wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI This seems to point to the general situation of change fatigue. If you pick up a random Android device, what does the "settings" app icon look like? Individually, these things are small, but the small impedances these changes introduce does take a toll on people, especially when…

In many cases the UI changes are driven by the desire to attract new users under assumption that the previous UI was not sufficiently attractive.

All UIs are clunky in some way or another. Most people are just happy to accept it once they’ve learned it. Changing it every five seconds makes it easier for them to try a competitor, as they’ve lost all the muscle memory

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#590

Post by Lammy » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

boudin wrote: post #434

Lammy wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. In this case it's people maintaining software that I don't use telling me I'm problematic for not switching to their stack, away from existing software that works perfectly fine and is also actively maintained by people who don't call me a flat-earther. Easy choice.

Sorry but that makes even less sense. If it's software that you don't use, how does it impact you? Nobody is holding a gun against your neck.

Correct, which is why I'm amused and not upset and will happily continue using my aged-but-working software. I'm also a horrible evil 𝓷ᴠɪᴅɪᴀ user because I need CUDA for a lot of my work :)