Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#581

Post by caseysoftware » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

jariel wrote: post #315

caseysoftware wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'now you have two Presidents' If you're going to imagine Constitutional crises, you should understand the rules we're working within. Check out the first section of the 20th Amendment and please report back how there could be two Presidents. Narrator: Turns out the system isn't that fragile. It continues on regardless because there are contingencies built in and improved upon over the years.

Obviously there wouldn't be '2 Presidents' by any reasonable application of a set of very clear rules. But those rules are not clear. One camp would believe, that Biden won a fair election, as stated by the DOJ, Homeland Security and the State Officals (it's their perogative), and that the preformative process of validating the results in Congress wasn't entirely necessary. The other claim would claim with 'the elect…

Thanks for clarifying. I think your example is perfect:

Your conspiracy theory is not based facts, law, or well-established interpretations of either and yet you're fully bought in and sharing it. I see how that could be dangerous, but I think silencing you would be worse for you personally and society as a whole.

Just don't threaten violence and we're good.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#582

Post by newacct583 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #569

newacct583 wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP. BLM burned down a Wendy's. You really don't see why people would react differently to those events?

You really don't see that dozens of deaths, 7+ Billion in damage, the attempts to overthrow elected officials as well as security institutions such as police departments in the same light? You're selectively choosing a wendy's to try and draw away from the same exact actions. Guillotines have been present at multiple protests the past year. Breaking of windows of federal, state, and public buildings. Large amounts of…

Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP...

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#583

Post by vharuck » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #493

slg wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe this needs to be said, but the fact it failed doesn't mean the danger wasn't real. Some members of the mob were actively looking to kill the people who were 2nd and 3rd in line for the presidency. Let's not pretend that there was zero danger to democracy.

> Some members of the mob were actively looking to kill the people who were 2nd and 3rd in line for the presidency. Let's not pretend that there was zero danger to democracy. Do you realize that numerous times throughout history people have successfully killed the actual president and it didn't end democracy? What these people did was a serious crime and it should absolutely be prosecuted to the full extent of the la…

>Do you realize that numerous times throughout history people have successfully killed the actual president and it didn't end democracy?

I'm no historian, so was there ever a time the killing was instigated by a sitting politician who then was not punished? (Yes, the Senate has yet to decide, but chances are they won't vote for removal or banning from office).

Because politicians trying to have their political opponents harmed or killed is basically all one needs to have fake democracy.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#584

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

DataWorker wrote: post #510

sdenton4 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: Perhaps you'd be willing to agree that this was an explicit attempt at a soft coup: The explicit goal was to disrupt congressional proceedings as part of a plan to overturn election results. Second: As others have observed, we got extremely lucky that the rioters didn't actually come in contact with any congress-people or the vice president. What do you think would have happened if, say the crowd has come in c…

It certainly looks much different from what we would historically label coup attempt. Usually a coup has to at least be theoretically possible. It also would seem to require some level coordination. I have yet to see evidence of that. I really do believe that some of the protestors might have been there to peacefully protest, not overthrow the American government. Ymmv

Try a few more times, you might get lucky.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#585

Post by Lazare » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #432

Lazare wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with almost everything you say except... > a bunch of talking heads on TV and Twitter that told them there was an "insurrection" (nothing of the sort happened of course) It didn't succeed, and in retrospect, it didn't look very effective. Many (but by no means all) of the participants were clowns. However, it was absolutely an attempt. People died in an attempt to storm a seat of government and install a diff…

> However, it was absolutely an attempt Attempt at what? Takeover of the power in the US? B-u-l-l-s-h-i-t. > People were chanting "hang Mike Pence", People chant a lot of shit. People were chanting "hang Trump" for four years, nobody ever called it an insurrection. Before that, they were chanting against Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Nobody ever has been hanged. Pretending not to understand the difference between chanti…

> Pretending not to understand the difference between chanting slogans and actually hanging somebody is silly.

Most people who chant performative calls for violence don't normally, build a gallows and then go looking for the target. But sure, no doubt they had no intention of using violence, other than, you know, against all the police officers who were seriously injured or killed.

But fine, let the record show that it's remotely possible they were merely trying to overthrow a government by the threat of violence against Congress and the VP, and not actual violence.

> There's no possible way of overturning any election this way [...] It is literally impossible to change result of the election by jumping on a desk in a Congress.

The people involved were acting on the belief that Congress has the power to change the result of the election, and they were trying to force Congress to use that power. That's also why they were after Mike Pence.

And were they wrong? As a matter of strict constitutional interpretation, I think so, but as practical matter, there's no particular reason to think it couldn't work. They wanted to get a resolution out of Congress announcing that Congress had counted the electoral votes and Trump had won (or failing that, some sort of resolution purporting to delay the inauguration, re-run the election, etc.) How the nation would have responded to that I couldn't say. I don't think it would have worked, but who knows?

In any case, yes, this is one of the ways you can overturn an election. It's happened before; no doubt it will again. It didn't happen this time, but it's absurd to pretend it wasn't an attempt, however inept it may have been.

> means armed violent action

And how did Sicknick die again?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#586

Post by ganoushoreilly » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

acdha wrote: post #529

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what about rioters burning the entrance and exit to Ted Wheelers home in Portland (which he wasn't even present at)? Would you agree the actions there were also attempts at murder and destruction of property of a duly elected official? To act like the past year has had nothing in comparison to insanity .. is well insane. Theses Capital idiots are just that Idiots and they'll see time in court. What's not clear is…

I was referring to the specific claim being made in the comment I replied to, and in particular the attempt to present an attempt to use violence to prevent an important government function as no more significant than a street protest. The attack on the Congress was trying to prevent recognizing the legitimate winner of an election, not just drawing attention to a cause in a public place. From that you could easily d…

Call this an insurrection and lambast the crazies for attempting to do whatever it is they were doing, but equally admonish the same that has been transpiring for months. This is no greater a risk or threat than the ongoing actions we've been subjected to for months.

It's all chaos and it's chaos that will be used as a means to reign in more control on freedoms and rights.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#587

Post by smichel17 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #564

throwaway894345 wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't believe this needs to be said, but the fact it failed doesn't mean the danger wasn't real. The danger is unreal not because it failed, but because it was obviously going to fail. We're talking about a bunch of delusional LARPers. If some foreign intelligence unit tries and fails to overthrow your country's government, that's insurrection. If it's the doofus who stole the podium or the guy with face paint an…

> We're talking about a bunch of delusional LARPers. There were lots of LARPers. There were also some groups moving in organised fashion with less expensive and more useful equipment. There were people with bombs. There were some people ready to inflict harm on LE and luckily they didn't carry on to other people. It was not a homogeneous group with same ideas and goals. That idea is just distracting from what happene…

Can we get some number or range for "lots of"? I imagine those words mean wildly different things (1-2 orders of magnitude) to different people.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#588

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

ABeeSea wrote: post #514

mistermann wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate a plausible (does not rely on significant speculation or hypotheticals) series of events at the Capitol incident that could have resulted in democracy being legitimately lost in America? I am unable to come up with one.

Enough democratic members of congress are killed that the election doesn’t become certified. The remaining members elect a new republican speaker of the house. The constitution declares that if no winner to the Presidential election is declared the speaker of the house becomes President on Jan 20th. The speaker of the house doesn’t have to be a member of congress so the remaining republicans could have voted Trump sp…

That has a pretty healthy dose of speculation in it, but provided this is consistent with the entirety of formal procedures, it's not bad.

Except this part:

> And that is how democracy dies in America.

Where does that part come in? Assuming your scenario did transpire, is there something in the procedures where elections are no longer held on a go forward basis? It seems unlikely to me, but I'm no expert on the matter - so, I ask you.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#589

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #391

mistermann wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate a plausible (does not rely on significant speculation or hypotheticals) series of events at the Capitol incident that could have resulted in democracy being legitimately lost in America? I am unable to come up with one.

This is an obviously impossible burden to load on someone, and I think you know that. If democracy is legitimately lost in America, it will happen via a series of events that we today cannot conceive of. It is more useful to think events like the Capitol incident as causing long-lasting damage to democracy, and there is a non-negligible possibility that societal schisms will widen, as opposed to heal. What that will…

This guy is a master troll, check his comment history. That's his whole shtick, and then he'll respond with wall-after-wall of text.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#590

Post by grecy » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

dfgdghdf wrote: post #344

grecy wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is an interesting one, because I think it just shows there are consequences for certain types of speech, but that speech is still very much possible. Kind of like how I can park without feeding the meter, and the "consequences" are just tickets. At no point can my license be revoked if I always pay all the tickets. So getting back to your analogy, if I use speech to make false claims about a product I wi…

In my example the speech is not physically prohibited but it is illegal.

Right, but what we've seen in the last couple of weeks is speech being physically prohibited.