Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#311

Post by thayne » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #170

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Honestly I think the legal status quo is pretty close to ideal: governments may not limit speech, but platforms can clamp down on anything they want. The only problem with the platforms is that they still somewhat cling to the idea that they won’t censor speech, which is frankly ridiculous. Of course they will censor, they should just admit it and clamp down any speech they find abhorrent. Allow the marketplace (and…

The problem is the amount of power held by just a few "platforms." The government may not legally be able to censor what they don't like, but if they can influence the platforms that can it amounts to the same thing.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#312

Post by cccc4all » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

I wouldn't stress over it one way or the other. This has been going on for many years, if not hundreds or thousands of years in human history. One group of people has always tried to take control over another group of people, by propaganda or force as necessary. Simply pick any history book and read about difficult times.

Being depressed or in despair actually makes it easier for the propaganda to work.

Seek out the truth, as the saying goes, the truth is out there.

One thing about people in tech are that they are aware of patterns. Certain patterns seems to work and certain patterns don't seem to work. Ask why certain patterns are pushed by central authorities and mainstream popular media and certain patterns are suppressed.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#313

Post by wvenable » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

> I thought I believed in free speech

You do. But the idea of free speech has been twisted and warped to mean speech without social or economic consequences and that is where it goes wrong.

I doubt you believe that speech should be more criminalized than it already is. I think most of us agree that having an opinion, no matter how outrageous or evil, should not be a crime. We agree on exceptions to this for outright threats of violence.

The expectation that speech should be free-as-in-beer. That you are entitled to a platform. That you should be free of all consequence. This the problem.

Providing privacy and communications produces not subject to control of a central authority isn't a bad thing! But we also shouldn't just be mindless cogs in the free speech money machine.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#314

Post by babesh » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #237

Aerroon wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free expression is chaotic. It always has been and it always will be. It will always have lies and misinformation, some people will even believe the lies. But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. Speech that is free will always seed doubt against ideas, regardless whether those ideas are true or false. It's an avenue that allows anything to be questione…

> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. This is the really tricky part, though... absolute free expression only prevents people from enacting total control if it persists; however, free speech is not something that can’t be undone. This is a form of the paradox of tolerance. If people use their absolute free speech to push lies and propaganda that al…

That is why you need an educated populace. By educated, we mean one that can think critically and independently rather than a college credential.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#315

Post by jariel » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #228

jariel wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Was it a "violent take over"? Not a chance" Sure it was. This is how a 'coup' works - the objective is not to 'take control of the country' by force, but of the political system. If that violent mob was successful in 'stopping the count' - then it very seriously threatens the legitimacy of Biden being president. Why do you think that Congress reconvened right after the violence and very quickly pushed through the vo…

> 'now you have two Presidents' If you're going to imagine Constitutional crises, you should understand the rules we're working within. Check out the first section of the 20th Amendment and please report back how there could be two Presidents. Narrator: Turns out the system isn't that fragile. It continues on regardless because there are contingencies built in and improved upon over the years.

Obviously there wouldn't be '2 Presidents' by any reasonable application of a set of very clear rules.

But those rules are not clear.

One camp would believe, that Biden won a fair election, as stated by the DOJ, Homeland Security and the State Officals (it's their perogative), and that the preformative process of validating the results in Congress wasn't entirely necessary.

The other claim would claim with 'the election was disputed' and that the failure to confirm the results in Congress was a 'fully legal act' that abnegates the possibility of Biden from taking office.

AKA '2 Presidents' by virtue of you you interpret the outcomes of those events.

The 20th Amendment does not help us clarify that situation.

In these contentious scenarios, the credibility of institutions is stretched and populism starts to take hold.

It would be major crisis.

This is why institutions started to rally around 'one camp' as to facilitate a proper transfer of power.

Since much of this debacle was based off of misinformation, it speaks directly to issues with 'truth' and 'freedom of expression'. I'm not sure if there is an obvious answer on the table, but there are definitely problems.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#316

Post by foolinaround » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #256

lliamander wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This threat is already mitigated by service contracts. AWS pretty obviously broke contract here, and will almost certain suffer legal consequences for that. Why they thought they could get away with it is unclear, but their rebuttle to Parler's claims is pretty weak.

Quite the opposite. Everything Amazon did was within the terms of their contract. Amazon could have terminated the agreement sooner. Since Amazon waited until after it was abundantly clear that harmful content was being posted on Parler, its going to be quite difficult for Parler to find much sympathy in any court.

Just to play the Devil's advocate here: Now, Amazon had given notice to Parler that they want some moderation that is automated... What are the specs for that? What would satisfy Amazon? Can it be delivered within that timeframe setting aside whatever else is going on?

These are real concerns for a company going forward. I guess many do not state because of the political ramifications of this particular case, but it will be discussed in board rooms.

as an example, i had a bad experience once with a HOA while living in my own home; the next home i bought, i ensured that i did not have to deal with the HOA.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#317

Post by roamerz » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Recent events such as the BLM riots or the riot at or nation's capital? I don’t agreer with either though I find it troubling that the politicians seem to be a lot more concerned with their safety than they were about private citizens safety or property during the BLM riots earlier last year.

About free speech making the world a better place.. those last 2 words are very subjective. It seems the only voices that were silenced were those with opposing opinions of our corporate ‘masters’.

Also is a better world - whatever that is - a required outcome for free speech? I think it’s a basic tenant of freedom and a free world. Being oppressed either by a corporation or a government is still oppression.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#318

Post by whatshisface » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #299

whatshisface wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why a future collapse into tyranny of a country in Europe would have to involve a revival of the symbols of any particular defeated regime. If they needed symbols for propaganda purposes, they'd draw from legal symbol pools, like Roman culture. (It "worked" once...) More likely, they would draw from contemporary symbols that already had positive sentiment associated with them. The point being, it's not cl…

> I don't see why a future collapse into tyranny of a country in Europe would have to involve a revival of the symbols of any particular defeated regime It wouldn't have to . But having watched Hitler sell the idea that Germany was being unjustly punished for Jewish lies a generation earlier, they drew the conclusion that [West] Germany was quite likely to see would-be tyrants rallying around a Lost Cause narrative a…

That's an interesting fact that puts the issue into a light I hadn't considered. Fortunately, the literal "lost cause" language of the American Civil War has already run its course, caused its damage (up to and including a presidential assassination), and the country has survived. Would banning confederate symbols have prevented the assassination of Lincoln? Probably not, to be honest. I wonder if it would have prevented anything.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#319

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

On the other hand, I'm amazed by how easily people are handwaving away what was a hairs breath from the murder and kidnapping of multiple elected officials, not to mention constitutional crisis/breakdown.

> TV and Twitter that told them there was an "insurrection"

It meets the definition though. There seems to be a lack of willingness to acknowledge an attempted coup as a coup, or a failed insurrection as an insurrection. And I get why. It's terrifying to acknowledge that. It's uncomfortable to realize how close we came to really bad things (and admittedly, hard to quantify how close we came. Trying to figure out what would have happened if Pence rejected the results, or if he was killed on the 6th is difficult. Many things could have happened).

> it doesn't take Russians or Chinese

Erm, Russians are 100% implicated in stoking civil unrest and conspiracies that built towards the events of the 6th. The Chinese may be, but I don't know. The problem is that people refuse to acknowledge that and take the threat seriously, which is how we got here.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#320

Post by nixgeek » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 12:02 AM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #259

015a wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree; but there are a few worrying trends that we need to keep an eye on with respect to this: * IPv4 space. IPv4 addresses are increasingly expensive. In a perfect world we'd just get rid of them, but instead, we live in a world where Amazon owns roughly $3B worth of them. They're critical to serving web content; what happens when centralized corporate mega-powers are the only ones who can afford them, or own the…

> IPv4 addresses are increasingly expensive They cost about $20 to buy. How is that expensive?

Most /24 seem to be marketed a little higher than that, so you’re really looking at ~$7500 USD for a minimum size prefix which you could advertise.

I do generally agree with your assertion this isn’t unaffordable, since the people who are most likely to care about owning their IP space instead of borrowing one from a provider like AWS most likely have other more significant costs like LIR fees, renting space/power/cooling for equipment, buying servers and network devices, etc etc.