Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#161

Post by dan-robertson » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

pmlnr wrote: post #133

dan-robertson wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “European”? And what laws are you talking about? Does this include the laws made in East Berlin or other communist countries? Do you think Le Pen didn’t get into power because of free speech laws? It seems to me like she just didn’t have quite enough support to get in. What about the laws made in post-communist countries like Poland or Hungary or Belarus? (Or Lithuania or Latvia?) Perhaps you mean…

I thought it's obvious from the context, but examples include denying the holocaust being a crime.

I guess my question is really what the effect of such laws was? Obviously there has been general prosperity and peace between the Western European countries but this may have been due to other reasons.

There doesn’t seem to be much more resilience in the population to the kind rhetoric we’ve seen recently in America. Indeed, there seem to be many parallels. Maybe the laws helped but we see less difference now as Europe after the war started “further behind”?

It’s certainly true that holocaust denial is illegal in Germany. It isn’t, for example, illegal in the U.K. (there was a libel case lost by David Irving against someone who called him a Holocaust denier where he tried to prove he was a legitimate historian however), and there are surveys showing that some percentage of the population don’t really believe it (but maybe this is the fact that for even seemingly trivial survey questions, some proportion of people give the wrong answer). I suppose here I would just point out that Europe is a big place.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#162

Post by glogla » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

pmlnr wrote: post #114

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

> But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. One hard truth: it would have been enough to look at European laws made after WWII, and adopt them in the US as well in the first place.

Interestingly, "typical European Free Speech laws" are both more and less restricting than you would see in the US - there's more limits on harmful ideologies and violence but less restrictions on sex and nudity, for example.

Of course it's not just constitutions and laws - movie ratings are not de iure laws but work that way de facto - and EU limits other things, like advertisement of pharmaceuticals.

Comparing the different approaches needs finesse and not just "free US vs non-free Europe".

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#163

Post by peytn » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

One counterpoint: everyone knows that as the makers of these tools we have power over others. Somebody somewhere must have a plan to manipulate us. Personally I take whatever I read with a huge grain of salt and stick to time-tested principles with minor updates.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#164

Post by travisporter » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

cccc4all wrote: post #150

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Always question everything you are told, especially by central authorities, mainstream popular media, etc. Seek out information from variety of sources and discern the truth from fiction. What you may think is evidence may be completely opposite of what it actually is. Especially any narratives that are pushed to convince people to voluntarily give up privacy and freedoms. Just look at all the regular people going ar…

What makes central authorities and mainstream popular media inherently more suspicious?

I disagree that having worked on tech projects would help you spot propaganda. It is illogical to assume you're an expert on the stock market just because you know how to code. (There's a fallacy name for this one which is escaping me)

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#165

Post by cccc4all » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

This should give pause to every companies using only the cloud, especially from single cloud company. It is single point of failure and it's under someone else's control.

Are they comfortable giving that kind of power to another company? Maybe a competitor?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#166

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #159

travisporter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree. Iran's supreme leader is still on twitter. But a counterpoint is that that ISIS was driven out of twitter and FB systematically. Correct me but you're implying in your statement is they "eliminated the one they didn't like [because of political views]" but that's not necessarily the only reason EDIT: Given your other responses, we're at an impasse. Bowing out.

I forgot the other reason: to give a gift to the new party in power in hopes of stopping the anti-trust cases. The dems were nudging some of them, ill be interested to see if we get a magical 180 degree turn.

[deleted]

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#167

Post by haberman » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

danudey wrote: post #157

MikeUt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be more direct - how do you think these powers of restriction on "influencing people" you want, will be used by an administration you don't want? Do you think there might be some foreign countries where such powers are already in place, that could give us a clue how things might turn out, or is America too much of a unique exception to be able to learn from anyone else's experience?

I would think that context is also important. Tweeting "burn the whole thing down" to a generally liberal crowd is a figure of speech which implies, by and large, the need for complete reform. To far-right "conservatives", white supremacists, violent insurrectionists, and paranoid militias, it implies something completely different. In other words, someone tweeting "burn the whole thing down" to a liberal following i…

There has been plenty of liberal, non-figurative burning down just in the last year. For example:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/31/george-...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/28/minneapolis...

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-declare-riot-...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fire-chief-damage-kenosh...

Codifying a double-standard of when it's "reasonable to assume" that certain threats are figurative based on political orientation of the speaker is just the kind of thing that pours fuel on the fire.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#168

Post by stretchcat » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #144

pmlnr wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it's obvious from the context, but examples include denying the holocaust being a crime.

I don't see why a future collapse into tyranny of a country in Europe would have to involve a revival of the symbols of any particular defeated regime. If they needed symbols for propaganda purposes, they'd draw from legal symbol pools, like Roman culture. (It "worked" once...) More likely, they would draw from contemporary symbols that already had positive sentiment associated with them. The point being, it's not cl…

> More likely, they would draw from contemporary symbols that already had positive sentiment associated with them.

Yes I think so. In fact, that's precisely what the nazis did with the swastika.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in...

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#169

Post by dukeofdoom » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #93

millzlane wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. I think free speech is necessary, but not free speech to harass or threaten violence. Free speech including the vile and negative won't make the world a better place. Arguing against the bad ideas will. But I do not think it's the burden…

> I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. Then what about lies? The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against (if you disagree, try using facts and rea…

Should we ban hyperbolic exaggerations? phrasing things in way that makes it seem like its a Biblical battle between good and evil, should be allowed in my opinion. I think its questionable how many literally belief in those things. But exaggerating things has been part of story telling forever.

Its also not that off to call someone a witch, that literally brags about staying youthful by applying a cream made from baby foreskins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY2aOHQlAco

And referencing Epstein island, which many elites did go to, is not really a conspiracy theory anymore. Its a documented fact.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#170

Post by amanaplanacanal » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Honestly I think the legal status quo is pretty close to ideal: governments may not limit speech, but platforms can clamp down on anything they want. The only problem with the platforms is that they still somewhat cling to the idea that they won’t censor speech, which is frankly ridiculous. Of course they will censor, they should just admit it and clamp down any speech they find abhorrent. Allow the marketplace (and marketplace of ideas) to work.