Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#581

Post by DevKoala » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

jpambrun wrote: post #363

pb7 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does mean that you have to use them (if you already do). If you're a user of Spotify or Tinder and they pull out of the App Store, you now have to follow whatever arbitrary consumer-hostile decisions that will make them the most money since there's no one to tell them otherwise. I like that they have to follow the strict rules in the App Store because I know they want that sweet sweet App Store money and won'…

Forcing you to use 3rd party store for few apps is somehow worst than forcing everyone to use the Apple store for all apps? This discussion is moot. Apple only has to lower it's cut to cost + a reasonable markup instead of abusing it's position to charge 30%. Then everybody can be happy.

Yes, I don’t want to create one more logging that gives up my IP address tied to my payment information.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#582

Post by abc-xyz » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

Aldo_MX wrote: post #462

vlozko wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it can’t be both ways. If tomorrow Facebook decides to only offer its app only through Epic App Store, consumers now have reckon with a privacy compromised app. And Apple now has to spend tons more resources playing a failing game of whack a mole closing all sorts of security and privacy holes that could have been avoided if the misbehaving apps weren’t allowed in the first place. Lots of people buy an iPhone…

Most of the recent jailbreaks involve Safari vulnerabilities, so you don't even need to install an app to compromise your iPhone, the walled garden is just security through obscurity.

Let’s compare malware on Windows, OSX, Android vs iOS, shall we?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#583

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

pb7 wrote: post #542

Aldo_MX wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is forcing them to develop for iOS. The market is. You can not afford not to publish something on iOS, if iOS were a niche platform used only by 1% of users maybe, but it is a mainstream platform used by more than 40% of users in the US.

I find it hard to believe that 100% of the market is the exact perfect amount that any given developer needs to sustain their business. 99% is already too little, and 60% is a non-starter. And yet this is the same market where tens to hundreds of companies have proliferated into billion dollar entities in mere years. It's nothing more than greed, just like the greed you supposedly fight against.

> iOS App Store 2018 revenue came to $46.6 billon, while Google Play revenue stood at $24.8 billion by this measure

https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/

> Apple Users More Willing to Pay for Apps

https://www.statista.com/chart/14590/app-downloads-and-consu...

> The median iPhone app user earns $85,000 per year, which is 40% more than the median Android phone user with an annual income of $61,000. [...] The average in-app shopping check is four times higher for an iOS user! [...] iPhone owners are also more likely to make purchases on their phones on a regular basis. These are important considerations for both retail app developers and those seeking to monetize via paid apps or in-app purchase. Mobile ads are the main source of revenue generation in Android apps.

https://buildfire.com/ios-android-users/

> Distribution of free and paid apps in the Apple App Store and Google Play as of June 2020

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263797/number-of-applica...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#584

Post by capableweb » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

xlii wrote: post #563

capableweb wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What games are you talking about specifically here and when? Fortnite was also developed by Unreal by the way. Also, Epic is not the first company to buy a game + its license and then only allow people to play it via their platform. Counter-Strike was a independent mod back in the days, before Valve bought it. Same goes for Day of Defeat and bunch of others games. I'm sure we can find even earlier examples of this ha…

There's a LOT. https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives Counter-Strike was Half-Life mod, and Half-Life was developed by Valve, so it's still the same developer. And yes, the Epic is the first company on the PC to do that. Console exclusiveness is known fact, but you could _buy_ game outside of the Steam if you wanted to. Epic started to hunt for 3rd party games and lock them in exclusiveness deal…

> Counter-Strike was Half-Life mod, and Half-Life was developed by Valve, so it's still the same developer

That's not how that works. Someone else developed Counter-Strike and released it to the community. Then around ~2000 Valve bought it + license and continued to develop it (with original developers as well).

DotA -> League of Legends was something similar as well. Third-party mods that got bought up by a company and then made exclusive to a particular store.

If you thought that the PC industry is somehow becoming like the Apple App Store, I think you're living in a fantasy. You can still download and run whatever binary you want. On a iPhone, you cannot.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#585

Post by nxc18 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #536

zepto wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being forced to sell on multiple stores and comply with multiple sets of store rules just to access the same set of consumers is a massive disadvantage. There will be greater risks. It’s conceivable that fees will be a little lower, but this will only benefit larger developers who can absorb the increased costs of dealing with all the stores. It will be nothing but destructive for smaller developers.

This is scaremongering. Android has alternative app stores and most apps don't bother releasing to them. iOS would not fragment overnight into dozens of app stores if it was to become open. Likely the majority of apps would still target the App Store, with a handful of major competing stores. These competitors would be incentivized to attract developers, otherwise they would end up with the same lack of apps that kil…

The basis for this belief is that Epic also sued Google Play for creating the existing conditions that you describe. Epic doesn't want to turn iOS into Android (which is bad enough on its own), they want to open the floodgates on Android, too.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#586

Post by tomarr » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #315

dgellow wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

> They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. My experience is that this is very true among a certain group of people, particularly literal-minded software enngineer types. But it is much less true in the general population where a single good analogy can accomplish more than pages of…

"It's like two bald men fighting over a comb"

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#587

Post by judge2020 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #324

nicetryguy wrote: post #75

I'm surprised at all of the negativity here. The changes proposed would be great for developers, even if (most) of the companies involved are shady, their reasons are selfish, and the obvious "astroturfiness" of the website is laughably dissonant and reeks like a dirty think tank that hasn't been cleaned in months. Apple has no qualms about absolutely screwing developers historically. I'm happy to see some pushback.

I have also been really surprised with the whole debate on this saga here. For developers, this looks like such a no brainer because they should personally relate to what these companies are asking for.

It's also a no-brainer from the business and marketing side. Unless Apple somehow forces certain rules on third-party app stores to require their apps to comply with advertising, tracking, and security measures, there's no reason for these third party app stores to care if the apps they have on their store track the user for advertising via something other than the tracking identifier - they'd all bypass the tracking consent popup via fingerprinting and other techniques.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#588

Post by samsquire » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #200

flenserboy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's advertising is built on security and privacy — allowing other App Stores on their system would only open up users to invasive tracking & attacks. I want my desktop system to be open as can be; I'm perfectly happy with my phone being (somewhat) locked down. That said, Apple could allow users to choose to install other App Stores on their devices, but at the cost of their devices being considered hopelessly com…

Except Apple is obsessed with taking responsibility for the entire user experience. Also, as people experience the subpar user experience w other app stores, they will still bring it to Apple for support. And probably blame apple - “it’s their logo on the cover”. Consumer behavior is not intelligent.

Yes, it is intelligent. In aggregate the market is intelligent.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#589

Post by judge2020 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

stephc_int13 wrote: post #411

dodobirdlord wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t follow at all that a worse time for developers means worse apps or less-happy consumers. Any time Apple enforces any kind of standard it’s “worse for developers”. I’m sure lots of developers are annoyed with Apple’s approach to fine-grained and highly visible app permissions, and wish they could just have full access to the user’s device. Screwing those people over is obviously good.

As a developer I am happy that the end-user can trust the platform, this is always better for business. I think it should be rephrased in this way: what is good for the ecosystem is good for the end-users.

And the execs at $adtech23 are absolutely furious about that; maybe the developers too, since it makes their job harder.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#590

Post by mardifoufs » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #375

joekim wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. As other's have mentioned, perhaps this is only for literal minded thinkers. In Pre-suasion by Robert Cialdini metaphors are identified as the most effective persuasion device…

That's exactly the problem with analogies. It fools people by falsely parading as a valid argument. Edit: The use of a life insurance salesman as an example is hilariously appropriate given the scam that whole life insurance is and how many people are fooled into buying it.

Im curious, how is life insurance a scam? Yes investing the money is probably better, but insurance is a hedge against the risk of not having saved enough because of an early death. I'm not familiar with the life insurance industry though, so I'm maybe missing something!