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I Got Catfished by a Candidate

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Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#581
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in the US it's run at the state level. Each state has a "Grand Lodge", that issues charters for the local Lodges (and in some cases, owns the buildings). Each state "recognizes" other state Grand Lodges (and their local Lodges) as "regular"; this lets me go visit other Lodges that my state GL has recognition with, and so forth. You might see lodges designated "AF&AM" or "F&AM" - that dates back to a minor s…

So I have an odd situation for you. I belonged to Blue Lodge #24 in South Dakota. I was elevated unusually rapidly to Master Mason to coincide with a visit from the Grand Master. I feel like it was way too fast; so much so that I didn't properly learn everything, in my opinion. I moved away from the area, lost touch with the lodge, and fell out of Freemasonry entirely. That was about ten years ago. Now I'm curious ab…

Contact a local Lodge, explain the situation, and usually you can get a "letter in good standing" from your original Lodge (or Grand Lodge), "demit" (officially leave) your original Lodge, then apply for membership at your new local Lodge (and pay normal dues and so forth).

They will not make you go through the degrees again - but you can surely observe others if you like, and the new local Brethren can help you get caught up on all of the modes of recognition and so forth.

People "going away" from Masonry for decades, and then coming back, is not uncommon at all, and nobody will look badly at you for it. Especially if you say "I felt like my degrees were rushed, and I'd like to learn more".

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#582
post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the solution to the next unfavorable situation he faces involves railroading you? Liars lie and cheaters cheat. You might be fine if you're never their target, but you never know when you will be.

Well said. These types of people are driven by an extreme arrogance that manifests itself as the justification for any bad behavior. Ultimately they believe they are always right, so if they have to lie in order to get you fired, that's fine, because clearly your crazy ideas are a threat to everyone's livelihood, and it would just be better for everyone if you were gone from the office, they just don't know it yet, b…

The companies they're applying to are engaged in behavior that is just as bad, so these "catfishers" are just creatively adapting to the unfavorable situation that employers have collectively created.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#583
post #464

The thing I don't get is, and probably I'll be downvoted to hell because of that, even though this guy lied about his past, his knowledge is solid. Nobody can guess what the interviewers will ask you and from what I've read from the text he aced those. If this is the tech business rolls what I see that it wants developers with a history, with connections, with "clout" so to speak; doesn't matter if you can help their…

Dude, no. Someone who would lie this much to get what he wants will lie when you're working with him. If he makes a big mistake he will lie about it to avoid getting fired just as surely as he lied to get the job. Citing Neil Gaiman -- or some other celebrity -- doesn't do anything to make this less true.

He was applying to a sales position. Sales is fundamentally about lying to potential customers to sell them stuff.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I have an odd situation for you. I belonged to Blue Lodge #24 in South Dakota. I was elevated unusually rapidly to Master Mason to coincide with a visit from the Grand Master. I feel like it was way too fast; so much so that I didn't properly learn everything, in my opinion. I moved away from the area, lost touch with the lodge, and fell out of Freemasonry entirely. That was about ten years ago. Now I'm curious ab…

I'm a British Freemason, but in my jurisdiction so long as you resigned in good standing (without any money owed), then you just need to open a dialog with a local lodge (in amity/recognition with your mother lodge's jurisdiction) and explain the situation to them. In England the secretary of your new lodge would either contact the secretary of your mother lodge to check you are in good standing, or ask you to contac…

As one of my mentors said, "It's not about you knowing the proficiency 100% when you pass, it's about knowing it 100% when you're teaching it to others."

I wasn't 100% when I turned mine in, but they passed me anyway - after many hours of studying and working with others, they knew I KNEW it, but just froze up a bit during the official presentation.

I'd had some extenuating circumstances (wife passing away, etc) and was running up against the time limit to prove MM prof (otherwise we would have had to file papers with GL to ask for an extension, etc). I was told "We KNOW you know it, we're going to pass you, but promise me you'll get at least a C certificate when you can." The certifications are basically the Masonic equivalent of "teacher certifications" that prove you know the work 100% backwards and forwards.

In Texas, none of the work is ever written down (its all by word of mouth). At least in my Lodge, nobody ever gets to the "sit in Lodge to prove proficiency" stage without spending hours and hours working with others and the Deacons have already unofficially "passed" you - the sitting in Lodge for it is just a formality at that point.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OPs point is, or maybe that's just my point, that in general and broader terms there should not be such a pressure to begin with. OP gave an example that even the best felt/feel it. So, on an individual basis, no, I would not want to hire that person out of an abundance of caution, but on a broader basis I would not like the pressure to do such a thing to exist to begin with. It's like crime: You want to puni…

So what's your solution? UBI? Because when a person's ability to make money and take care of themselves is on the line, in competing for a job against other candidates, there will ALWAYS be high levels of pressure. The guy mentioned in the OP wasn't experiencing any additional pressure beyond "I need a job"; he wasn't in some high stress boiler style interview (the interview actually sounds like just casual conversat…

> there will ALWAYS be high levels of pressure.

The pressure exists because the opportunities to do anything are scarce. We force people into the hands of BAD practices and even psychopaths, and because this is so one-sided there won't be a turn for the better in practices and behavior. The mechanism that is supposed to lead to better outcomes overall is broken.

Strangely enough, we actually have plenty to do! From social work or just cleaning up, stuff that anyone can do, to "scientific stuff".

You may say that people don't want to do the low-level jobs because status, income etc. - but I think that this is an excuse:

In ALL discussions the TOOL - finance, money - is seen as the thing to optimize. The tool has taken over the workshop! In ANY discussion about anything wrong people immediately start talking about "money". Which is very strange, because

1) money is purely an idea, for the society as a whole just inventing new "money" if there really should be scarcity somewhere that prevents work from being done is as easy as snipping fingers (we have done that in the trillions not long ago). (Don't point to "inflation!", because a) that's again talking about the tool, and b) as I said, if shortage of money that prevents work from being done.)

2) we have completely forgotten the whole purpose! The the tool has to serve humanity, not the other way around! If we find places where there are issues that need to be solved, how can the tool be the limiting factor? If we find it to be we need to do use a different tool for THAT SPECIFIC thing (Note: I'm not black/white, "Oh I found A problem, let's throw everything out. Of course, keep the tool for the places where it does work well.)

For example: Copyright, patents. Those things don't serve humanity, they serve the TOOL! Humanity would be better off if you say "Oh my god we are sooo lucky - copying stuff is free" (as in "real costs", not money). So let everybody use any knowledge they want, read, watch, listen to anything they want. YES the tool "money" does not allow that, "How would creators get paid?!" If the tool does not do the job we need a different tool! It is obvious that apart from "money" considerations the world would indeed be better off with free stuff being free. We have a HUGE amount of effort to limit the distribution of stuff that's actually free, completely artificially. Because we take care of the tool, the "money", pretending that it is the end-all.

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To add a very quick and therefore necessarily even more incomplete proposal than it really is in my head (which is incomplete enough):

First, I'm against a UBI. Doing nothing at all may work in a different context, with different culture, maybe we'll get there some day. If we did it right now it would not work.

On the other hand, when we use the tool "money" we ignore the HUGE cost of SPENDING: Maybe because of inequality (I don't know the reason), but people are very, very reluctant to spend. That means other people have a hard time making money. I think money circulation, the flow, is far less than it should be, maybe not globally (huge company problems are not my concern), but for the vast majority of the world population. If you are concerned that more spending is not possible because there is not enough money, well, a) see above, b) it's a circle! As I just wrote, when people have it easier to spend others will get more.

As one concrete example, imagine a lot of huge companies got together and instead of each building their own, they build ONE big subscription service, for everything available in "binary". Everybody can get a subscription - and gains access to everything. What is "everything": Every website, from news websites to blogs to Github(!!!) can sign up and offer access only to those who have a subscription. Github, for example, can offer all those maintainers of free packages (I was one of them, a PITA) money. Distribution of money is according to use. The more people read a blog, a new site, or download/use Github packages the more they get.

This solves the problem of the spending threshold: People already pay, now they don't need to think each and every time "Do I want to pay another dollar for this or that?" (in the case of Github packages and many others that's not even an option!). On the other hand, by bundling it all, they also don't need to be concerned if a certain payment is worth it.

Obviously there are LOTS of "details" such as how do you track usage and protect against people using download bots to increase there numbers. However, we already have all those problems, and more! All that anti-copyright, anti-ad-blocking, anti-this-or-that effort, from software, hardware (Blueray encryption as example), to legal efforts.

Just one suggestion. I do NOT think or propose THE ONE solution for everything. That is exactly the problem! Humans find something that works in some cases, now they start using it everywhere unthinkingly! "Money" for example. It works very well in some cases! But very badly in others. We need many solutions, tailored to the specific problem.

Forget "money", solve the actual problem instead! If "money" looks useful, then use it. Yes today it's used for everything. That's a huge part of the problem! At the very least, maybe we should have many "moneys" and not just one. Too many completely different and independent things are artificially coupled.

Also, the state should fulfill it's role as a "guardian of last resort". People should not be afraid all the time. I know I am, and I'm well educated and work in IT in a rich country that actually even still has a social network (Germany; I worked in the US for almost a decade though, Silicon Valley). Also, don't force people into "finance" (e.g. "you have to save for retirement, you need to invest"). This is completely against how humanity works: Specialization! This "investment" stuff is a smart idea of people making a living in the monetary sector itself, to have the government force people to send more income their way.

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Something similar - a fund - for everybody else!

Anyone doing anything useful, like sweeping the street, gets money. But everybody is free to decide what it is. There must be a usefulness measure, "I cleaned my teeth" or "I walked through my garden"... hmmm. So let's add a provision that a number of people have to sign off on the activity as useful, then you get paid.

This lowers the threshold: Nobody needs to decide "I pay for this street to be swept clean" (which is very high!), and nobody needs to sign up to work for others who themselves sell your services for much more money and get rich ("entrepreneurs" employing cleaners, for example).

I think THIS would be a lot more "capitalistic" than what we have: People deciding for themselves not just what they want to offer, but also what they find useful, instead of letting a very small handful of "entrepreneurs" do it for everybody. Yes yes, "the market", but the market does not work! We have a bottleneck.

There could (should!) be a bonus when people self-organize and do something together instead of doing something on their own. Entire "virtual temporary companies" are possible! Give people the ability and necessity to make decisions, which for most people in what is called "market" is not the case at all. My proposal has more "market" in it than the current one, while lowering the transaction costs significantly, and taking out middle men.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#586
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain to me how "this person worked here" compares to "I never inhaled". These two statements do not equalize for me.

Totally similar things. Drugs are irrelevant for doing the job and same is work experience. What matters is skills but they can't be measured most of the time so proxy value "experience" has been invented. But everyone knows that it is only a proxy thing and that very likely you won't be hired if you can do the job but can't "prove" it. So social moral value of lying about work experience has fallen to insignificant…

Exactly. I've been pretty lucky in that I've had a lot of good experience, so my lying is with other things, such as making people think I plan to stick around at their company for a really long time when that's very unlikely.

I have to agree with the other poster: I think nearly everyone lies, it's just a matter of what they lie about, and how much. Don't forget that "lies of omission" are still lies. You're not going to get far by being completely truthful about everything. I was lucky that my educational background and work experience have been good (and of course that I come from the right socioeconomic background for this kind of work), but there's other places where I've had to be less than honest (like "why did you leave this job?"). I'm sure just about everyone is the same way to some extent.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#587
post #565
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between avoiding answering a question to prevent hurting someone's feelings, and doing so just to put yourself in a positive light (for selfish reasons). The scenario I was envisioning was the former. Yeah I understand that some people try to spin everything their way, and I know it's annoying. My point was that just because someone doesn't answer a question or doesn't tell you everything they th…

In this scenario you were asked one question, but answered another when saying "thank you for making it", because you didn't want to deal with the social fallout of actually telling the truth to the original question. I don't see how that's not mental gymnastics to say it's not lieing, which seems like a big divide in this thread

It's actually very simple, and not at all mental gymnastics.

It's not a lie because I didn't say something that was not true.

Again you are saying that me not answering a question is equivalent to me lying, and you are simply wrong about that. They are not the same thing.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone lies, because the interviewing process itself is a fucking joke, ESPECIALLY in the Bay Area. If the person can answer all my questions and they have a good attitude, I honestly don't give a shit what got them to that point. If someone doesn't work out, you can fire them. Yes it's "exhausting", maybe if it's so difficult to manage or run a business you should find a different role for yourself. I really enjoy…

For sure someone that lies to me in the face has not the right attitude. I honestly cannot understand how you can trust someone that lies to get a job. And I can definitely say that you are completely wrong if you think that everyone lies. I never lied to an interview and frankly I can’t imagine why I should do it. It’s a really sad world if lying to get a job seems normal.

It seems normal to me.

If someone asks you "why did you leave this job?" for a place where things didn't go very well (suppose you had a terrible manager there), are you going to be completely honest and slam your former employer, or are you going to just say something about how "I wasn't being challenged enough" or something like that and found something better? You do realize that candidates who trash former employers are much less likely to be hired, right?

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#590

The thing I don't get is, and probably I'll be downvoted to hell because of that, even though this guy lied about his past, his knowledge is solid. Nobody can guess what the interviewers will ask you and from what I've read from the text he aced those. If this is the tech business rolls what I see that it wants developers with a history, with connections, with "clout" so to speak; doesn't matter if you can help their…

Are you saying it's good to hire people who lie to get through the interview? What would they lie about on the job?

This kind of thing can end badly. I worked with a guy who was kicked out of two companies (first for fiddling expenses and second for faking his CV on a grand scale) and ended up sentenced to 64 months in prison for fraud. [0] He fooled a lot of very smart people along the way. I still don't fully understand why he did it--he was a smart guy and didn't need to cut corners to be very successful.

[0] http://fraudtalk.blogspot.com/2009/11/former-california-soft...

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