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Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

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Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#571

Post by VirusNewbie »

SpacePortKnight wrote: post #216
nabla9 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what's going to happen? Apple might make their own search engine. Apple has a team that's been creating a next-generation search engine codenamed Pegasus under John Giannandrea. They already have search engines for App Store, Maps, Apple TV and News and Spotlight. Apple web search development worked as bargaining chip in pricing negotiations with Google. Google paid them $20 billion per year to not compete as mu…

Apple could make a search engine but by the same logic, they wouldn't be able to make it default on their devices.

and they'd run it on...AWS or GCP?

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#572

Post by tomjen3 »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #69
causal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. People use Google because it's the default, not because they will go out of their way to keep using it. The minute Apple changes the iPhone default, all but a few iPhone users stop using Google.

For those disagreeing, the power of defaults is incredibly powerful , most users are blissfully unaware on how to, or why they might want to change them. Sure, plenty will change it back, but many won't. We've seen this play out with Apple Maps already — Something that may get Apple in trouble too. Remember that Google was paying Apple 20 BILLION for the privilege, and a key reason they had an antitrust case against…

On Windows, the default browser is edge, but Chrome is far more popular.

What will happen is that people will use Bing without knowing it and then complain that “Google is broken”. To many people, search is google in the same way that a Kleenex is a tissue.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#573

Post by timcederman »

teitoklien wrote: post #519
singularity2001 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They already have search engines for App Store if their Internet search engine was as good as their App Store search engine then we would need to wait half a minute to get oranges if we search for tomatoes

They already have a tiny instant search engine which shows 1 result of a url at top. I’d say its pretty accurate and impressive 95% of the time to the point im impressed at how good its suggestions are considering it’s just the top 1 search.

Funny you're showing up as downvoted, but this is absolutely right. Apple is testing their search abilities with URL autocomplete and it's surprisingly good. It's gotten much better in the last 6 months in particular.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#574

Post by ffgjgf1 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #517
cletus wrote: post #31

I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds. Why? Mozilla and Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions. What's more, no one else can pay to be the default either (eg the short-lived Mozilla Bing deal). So what's going to happen? Most users will probably still use Google, nobody is getting paid an…

"I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds." If the decision will not be bad for Google, then why would Google spend so much money and time to defend against it.^1 Why not just stop making the anti-competitive payments and terminate the agreements. Money saved. Problem solved. We can now safely say it is not a defense to claim "Google is the best" and that's why people choose it. Anti-com…

> Why not just stop making the anti-competitive payments and terminate the agreements. Money saved. Problem solved.

It’s only solved if nobody does it. If Google stops those payments unilaterally MS would just make a slightly cheaper deal with Apple..

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#575

Post by ffgjgf1 »

aergh345ygq wrote: post #542
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds." If the decision will not be bad for Google, then why would Google spend so much money and time to defend against it.^1 Why not just stop making the anti-competitive payments and terminate the agreements. Money saved. Problem solved. We can now safely say it is not a defense to claim "Google is the best" and that's why people choose it. Anti-com…

So really it's just a loss for everyone all around. But at least nobody is being anti-competitive I guess.

Except Apple and Mozilla for whom it’s a huge part of their profits/revenue respect

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#576

Post by fuzztester »

TheCleric wrote: post #503
fuzztester wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pardon me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly >A monopoly (from Greek μόνος, mónos, 'single, alone' and πωλεῖν, pōleîn, 'to sell'), as described by Irving Fisher, is a market with the "absence of competition", creating a situation where a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular thing. how is Google a monopoly according to the above definition in Wikipedia? they have competitors like b…

Depending on the metric, Google has 90% of the search engine market. Yes they have competition in a literal sense, but not in a meaningful sense.

10% is quite a meaningful share, in an absolute sense. also, 10% of a huge market is, well, huge.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#577

Post by tomjen3 »

tootie wrote: post #223
knuckleheads wrote: post #37

> Mehta’s decision is expected to trigger a separate proceeding to determine what penalties Google will face – and the company is also likely to file an appeal As a Google antitrust watcher, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with what remedies the court will actually recommend to correct this monopoly. If you ask 20 experts, who all otherwise agree that Google is a monopoly, you might get 40 different answers ab…

I can envision a gnarly Venn diagram of search, ads, AI, analytics, Chrome. You could easily make this 5 separate companies (ads and analytics were acquired), but you probably just need to split it somewhere in the middle.

Search would just farm out ads or develop their own again: its two sides of the same paper, by necessity.

Chrome is a loss leader and if cut out to it’s own company will die, because browsers are not a business that can make money anymore (same with eg C compilers for x86), AI maybe, but the only advantage AI has at google is that it has a crap-ton of data to train it with. Without that? The market just has one less AI product.

Regardless of how you split it, whomever ends up with search ends up with the value. And I guess the only way to split search would be into a background service api you could query and then have the front page be its own business. Others could then buy access, but the problem with that is that you then have a supplier that has all the power…

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#578

Post by ffgjgf1 »

smsm42 wrote: post #498
cletus wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We forget that there was at least a decade of several "Google killers" a year [1]. It's a graveyeard. That was 2009 too. The volume slowed down but people are still trying (and failing) [2]. Microsoft has of course tried but Bing is only really propped up by Microsoft's deep pockets. It's not a profitable enterprise (AFAIK). And this is with Microsoft using every trick they can to bypass EU and US consent decrees and…

You can't seriously bring 2009 as a proof the situation now is the same. In Internet terms, it's like arguing current politics with examples of the time of Charlemagne.

Well search engines were actually useful back in those days and there was room for competition.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#579

Post by tomjen3 »

hugh_kagi wrote: post #21

We face a number of challenges simply letting our paying customers change their search engine: 1. On iOS the list of allowed search engines is simply baked into OS, we have a fiddly extension that hooks outbound calls to /search and redirects them but I wish we didn't need to. 2. On Chrome, we use an extension to change the default search engine and enable search auto-complete etc, but Google has a policy that such a…

Ah that’s why you removed the “summerize” this page option from extension?

I must say I really hated that change, hopefully you will consider making a new extension?

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#580

Post by ffgjgf1 »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #443
cletus wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We forget that there was at least a decade of several "Google killers" a year [1]. It's a graveyeard. That was 2009 too. The volume slowed down but people are still trying (and failing) [2]. Microsoft has of course tried but Bing is only really propped up by Microsoft's deep pockets. It's not a profitable enterprise (AFAIK). And this is with Microsoft using every trick they can to bypass EU and US consent decrees and…

The big difference is that at that point of time Google search used to be really good but now Google search is really bad so if there is a chance for another competitor in the market, that time is now.

IMHO that’s mainly because the modern open/public internet kind of sucks. The ratio of content to garbage is extremely bad
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