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Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

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Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#571

Post by Aaargh20318 »

ghaff wrote: post #541
dijit wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account). My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor. having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legisl…

When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a le…

In the Netherlands, the government already keeps track of everyone’s address. If you move, you have to register your new address with the municipality within a certain time frame. (IIRC 2 weeks)

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#572

Post by darrenf »

dijit wrote: post #368
toast0 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some notes, but $1 bills are pretty durable. And most places will take them in nearly any condition, although, I did have a merchant in Ocean City, NJ recently that wouldn't take a $1 with a small tear, and I hear merchants overseas do want pristine USD.

More andecdotes but I've had british pound coins that were minted in the early 60's still in passable condition; nearly every dollar bill I've had in the US has been grimy and darkened and felt like it was three seconds from falling apart. (ok, hyperbole, but I've had a few like that) The US note was printed after 2001, that's a considerable time difference. Though your $20 notes are usually in excellent condition fo…

> More andecdotes but I've had british pound coins that were minted in the early 60's still in passable condition;

The sterling pound coin was introduced in 1983. The 60s were pre-decimalisation even.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#573

Post by ffhhttt »

dylan604 wrote: post #524
ffhhttt wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t this only apply to individual transactions? Only it’s very weird to just assume that this might apply to bank deposits…

>Only it’s very weird to just assume that this might apply to bank deposits… Is it? I find it weird you think so. If you and I exchange > 3000 between us, nobody will ever know, so the law is pointless. The one place that this can be policed is at the bank level. You're assumption seems to be that if you gave me 3000, I'd just keep it in cash. In the US, if you make a deposit > $10,000, the bank is regulated to repor…

> Is it? I find it weird you think so.

We might focus on the law itself and not some hypothetical situation.

> nobody will ever know, so the law is pointless.

You can’t sign a contract for anything worth more than €3000 if you want to pay in cash. If you want to declare your income, pay taxes, prove that you obtained the money legally when you later want to deposit it to an bank, during a tax audit etc. Of course it won’t affect transactions which are already done illegally so it depends on what do you mean by ‘pointless’.

The $10k limit is also a thing in Europe, the exact amount varies by state though (I think).

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#574

Post by mrbadguy »

dangus wrote: post #268
SileNce5k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there's no limit where I live which is Norway. Hopefully, there are no plans to introduce one.

The libertarian-minded tend to think that this kind of freedom is necessary to prevent government overreach and oppression, but in reality the bulk of the people making large cash transactions are either avoiding taxes (ripping off you, the taxpayer) or participating in organized crime (human trafficking, weapons/drugs/counterfeit black markets, etc). I would also argue that the only people making cash transactions t…

> There is no situation I would be comfortable making a transaction with that much cash (unless I was in so insanely wealthy that this amount of money meant nothing to me)

That’s fine for you but why does that mean it should be illegal for everyone else?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#575

Post by NorwegianDude »

chollida1 wrote: post #538
NorwegianDude wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ease of payment? Paying with a card is much simpler and faster. Take your card, phone or watch and hold it to the terminal for one second and you're done. It's not normal for payouts to take 5 days. In Norway it's the next day.

I was assuming payment for things like contractors or furnace repair that don't walk around with visa terminals. I agree that in a grocery store, it is far easier to pay with a card.

But people usually do have a terminal to accept payment. If not, they usually just send you an invoice. Makes bookkeeping much simpler for the business too.

I have only paid in-person using NFC for nearly 10 years in Norway. I understand that the situation is different other places, but I'm literally not sure what our physical currency looks like now.

However, I walked into a store in Spain yesterday that was cash only. Now I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway. If cash was no longer an option then it would be much simpler and cheaper as my bank does the currency exchange for me.

Digital payments are probably better in every way when it's the norm, except for privacy, and that's a big one.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#576

Post by mrguyorama »

sowbug wrote: post #382
sigzero wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy workaround is that you do more than one cash payment.

In the US banking system, that's called structuring. Which means that transactions of $10,000 or more are legally suspicious, and transactions under $10,000 are legally suspicious. Logicians, please simplify the previous statement.

You are incorrect: "Transactions under $10k" are not legally suspicious, but rather, multiple transactions that are very large but under $10k but when added together are more than $10k. It's not that easy to end up under scrutiny for structuring unless you're running a cash heavy business without declaring it. Moreover, 99% of the time, the "scrutiny" is "fill out this paperwork"

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#577

Post by flir »

bonzini wrote: post #360
dijit wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll be downvoted, but to answer this question with all honesty: 1) Disallowing a third-party in every single transaction you make, especially as 1a) Inflation means 3k now might be quite low in 20 years 1b) Banks themselves have been shown to be scummy 1c) Banks are a rare institution to allow outsiders into. 2) Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineli…

> Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists There's also money orders.

Maybe stamps.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#578

Post by sacado2 »

halfdan wrote: post #257
thereddaikon wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a european but I do have an example. A few years back I purchased a project car in cash. I don't carry checks, who does anymore? And my bank would have given me grief trying to transfer an amount that large at once. I had tried before and it would trigger their fraud detection and give me headaches. Its good its there but can be a barrier when I'm just trying to buy something. So going to branch and withdrawi…

This seems a US centric problem. No one in Europe has carried checks since the 90s and large bank transactions are really a non issue as they resolve within a banking day and for a small fee you can usually do real time transfers too.

Checks are still a big thing in France nowadays.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#579

Post by totony »

mdrzn wrote: post #258
ClarityJones wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is money. Cash is immune to bank runs. If you have $10,000, then you have $10,000. If you deposit $10,000 in a bank, then you have $0 and a promise from a bank that has $1,000 and a promise (from somebody else) for $9,000.

So maybe we should fix fractional reserve instead of having an issue against cash? I would rather pay $10k with a bank transfer than having to carry that much on me.

What if the bank doesn't allow you to make that transaction? How much delay are you willing to accept? Fees?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#580

Post by nikanj »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #424
gspencley wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? The answer to this is very simple: none of your business. I take strong issue with the word "need." Why do you need that car? That television? That four bedroom house? Why do you need that bow and arrow? For sport, you say? Why not play some ball game instead? Why do you need a chess set when you can play digitally online without killing a tree? Why do you need those f…

It’s absolutely wild to see people making comments like the one you replied to. Are people so eager to have Daddy Government monitoring their every move, deciding how they’re allowed to spend their money? Europeans seem to have Stockholm Syndrome, a fetish for authoritarianism of their preferred flavor. It feels like the entire continent is one big HOA, deciding what color you can paint your house, or what flowers yo…

And Americans have the opposite problem, where they’d rather have an incredible list of social issues than a government.

I guess it comes down to perspective: is it fair to force everyone to pay their taxes?

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