Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#521

Post by d136o » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:25 PM UTC

raincom wrote: post #263

ajmurmann wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not stop transactions for drugs, but it might make laundering the money harder and more necessary

It makes money laundering harder for low and intermediate level drug dealers. Netherlands is a major importer for drugs: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Hamburg are major ports for drugs. Drug wholesalers in EU would rather transport millions of euros abroad, and use these euros in Africa in order to buy gold and other metals from locals. All of sudden, one ends with gold, sell gold back to refiners and get paid with bank…

Ideally transactions denominated in Western coin align with western values (Good Things).

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#522

Post by gunapologist99 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:25 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #433

gunapologist99 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> show that you sold products there's zero issues well, there might be one small issue! how can you 'show you sold products'? after all, you sold them!! isn't the cash sufficient to show you sold products? hasn't it been sufficient for thousands of years?

This isn't the gotcha you think it is. As for all businesses transactions, you should file it in your accounting software and make sure you pay taxes, vat etc on it. This law changes nothing in that regard.

So now you're bringing in your accounting software and tax records to the bank to make the deposit?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#523

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:25 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #366

dangus wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your second sentence/paragraph points out exactly why this restriction is needed: the only people who would ever in their right mind transact in that much cash are very likely to be either avoiding taxation (a.k.a. stealing from the common taxpayer), or keeping money off the books to hide illegal activity. The average person isn't affected by this type of government surveillance and potential overreach becaus…

I purchase, restore, and sometimes sell old woodworking machinery as a side gig to subsidize my own purchase of woodworking equipment for my shop. I have had multiple cash transactions above $3,000 every year that I've done this. Not to avoid taxes, not to keep them off the books, but because one of the parties has either the unwillingness or inability to take electronic payments. Elderly people, those located in rur…

Yea, assuming you're in the USA, I don't think a similar restriction would be workable here in America. Too many people are unbanked or for other reasons transact mostly in cash. And even for those who do have bank accounts, we don't have the nice, bank-based money transfer solutions that are commonplace in the rest of the developed world--we're stuck with shit-tier solutions like Zelle and Venmo and PayPal.

I wouldn't say I routinely do large (>$3000) cash transactions, but I do them often enough that I guess I'd be a criminal in the Netherlands.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#524

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

ffhhttt wrote: post #412

dylan604 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you have any actual example of that ? What transaction do small farmers need to do along roadside for thousands of eur ? As kid of small farmer I don't remember anything like that ever happening. While each transaction might be <3000, on a good weekend, I could see it totaling to be over that amount. At this point, would it be illegal for the farmer to show up to his bank to deposit 3001? Does the farmer now need…

Doesn’t this only apply to individual transactions? Only it’s very weird to just assume that this might apply to bank deposits…

>Only it’s very weird to just assume that this might apply to bank deposits…

Is it? I find it weird you think so. If you and I exchange > 3000 between us, nobody will ever know, so the law is pointless. The one place that this can be policed is at the bank level. You're assumption seems to be that if you gave me 3000, I'd just keep it in cash.

In the US, if you make a deposit > $10,000, the bank is regulated to report it. It doesn't matter why you are making that deposit, it gets reported. Applying the same thing to Euro markets only seems natural.

Edit: Actually, even car dealerships have to report someone showing up to buy a car with >$10,000 in cash as well.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#525

Post by cwmma » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

thmsths wrote: post #411

What I find really unfair in these situation is that the government is banning something but not really offering any alternative. There are plenty of transactions where using large amounts of cash is perfectly legitimate and the best option. What is the Dutch government suggesting here? Personal Checks have the obvious issue that the issuer can just default on them long after they have received the good or service. C…

Europe has a working system of direct bank transfers that are used all the time by most everyone. Europeans basically never use checks. A lot of Americans here are really confused because America does not have this infrastructure but it exists in Europe and people already use it all the time.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#526

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #500

Scarblac wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course people spend that regularly, but not with cash.

I've owned seven vehicles in my lifetime. Five of them were paid for with cash transactions greater than $3,000. It's quite common for private sellers to prefer cash.

Maybe in the US.

My bank has 27 offices left in the entire Netherlands, and I don't think many of them take cash. I wouldn't even know how to get 3000 euro in cash into my bank account these days.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#527

Post by SkyPuncher » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

Commenting from a US perspective, where we don't have this limit.

IMO, the only time this causes issue is when transacting private-to-private sales of big ticket items. Most likely something with a title (cars, boats, ATVs, trailers, etc, etc).

I really despise having to bring thousands of dollars of cash to buy a vehicle, but right now there just isn't a better way to do it. Sign the title, exchange the cash, and it's essentially a 100% guarantee the transaction works.

With a limit like this you need an arbitrator. Right now, there simply isn't a good way to do that.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#528

Post by oliwarner » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #127

They can't control the black market in drugs, what makes them think controlling a black market in cash , which is a million times more desirable, will be any more successful? There's the small matter of millions of undocumented migrants entering Europe who will be trapped in this now-illegal-cash underclass, and these financial oppression laws just incentivise and create criminal networks to facilitate basic economy.…

I disagree entirely.

The problem with black markets is they function because the money they trade in has real world value. If you taint significant sums so they can't be used to buy assets (3k is a lot of money for a single transaction, thanks) you make it harder to benefit from crime.

And I don't understand why you're explicitly defending tax evading smallholders. Because farms? Even smallholders can declare and deduct expenses.

On your first point, some countries allow asylum seekers to work, and even if they don't, some tax systems allow them to declare income even if they're not really allowed to have any. I'm definitely in favour of making sure everyone works to the same rule, so everyone can live honestly.

Cash-in-hand work has to die.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#529

Post by phanimahesh » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

intotheabyss wrote: post #192

dsr_ wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just carry the credit card and pay at the end of the month, skipping the business with 'stablecoins'.

The entire thread is about people not being able to go across borders with x amount of cash without declaring it. I could walk across a border with 100k in stablecoins and never declare it, and then have immediate access to those funds like I would cash. My point is to show the absurdity of these kinds of laws.

Not commenting on the absurdity, but (untraceable) physical cash is what's forbidden. And governments are going after anonymous asset ownership systems like crypto for the same reason. They want control, and visibility into monetary movemnts.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#530

Post by systems_glitch » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #366

dangus wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your second sentence/paragraph points out exactly why this restriction is needed: the only people who would ever in their right mind transact in that much cash are very likely to be either avoiding taxation (a.k.a. stealing from the common taxpayer), or keeping money off the books to hide illegal activity. The average person isn't affected by this type of government surveillance and potential overreach becaus…

I purchase, restore, and sometimes sell old woodworking machinery as a side gig to subsidize my own purchase of woodworking equipment for my shop. I have had multiple cash transactions above $3,000 every year that I've done this. Not to avoid taxes, not to keep them off the books, but because one of the parties has either the unwillingness or inability to take electronic payments. Elderly people, those located in rur…

A mechanic we used before moving had a strict no checks policy. He had a bad check for the repair of a church bus, from a church, framed in a fancy gold-painted frame, with "IN GOD WE TRUST, ALL OTHERS PAY CASH" below it.