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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#561

Post by Bender »

mcv wrote: post #43

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. I've always been annoyed by the need to type in sensitive card in…

Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system.

That is really cool. I would like to see that system in the US given that my bank has IP restrictions for my account. I would also like the ability to pre-approve specific vendors for specific amounts within each bank as a native service all banks should support.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#562

Post by jmyeet »

We're entering an era of "tech nationalism". China has been completely vindicated for esssentially not allowing their country and economy to be held hostage to foreign tech companies. It would be an era of "tech colonialism". Look into the century of humiliation, gunboat diplomacy, the opium wars, etc and see why China might not be on board for that.

Europe collectively is a US vassal state, not just in tech. As an example, if someone in Switzerland Venmos someone in the Netherland with a description of "Cuba" or even "Cuban" (sandwich), the payment could be delayed or you could be banned entirely [1]. Why should a payment between two Europeans in Europe be entangled with US sanctions?

The danger here for European "tech emancipation" is that the US government will get involved and fight the fights for US companies. The United Fruit Company was the poster child for this where the US deposed the Guatemalan government in 1954 and the 60+ years of Cuban sanctions are basically because the UFC was cheating on Cuban taxes.

Brazil's Pix (IMHO) will come under the pressure of this on behalf of Visa/Mastercard that may include trade retaliation and other forms of pressure and the US government will argue that Pix is "illegally" subsidized by the government. Europe's payment systems will face the same attacks.

[1]: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/matthewzeitlin/be-caref...

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#563

Post by boredtofears »

ohrus wrote: post #557
boredtofears wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the "self loathing american on the internet" act to be about as performative as putting a pink ribbon on your social media avatar after a shooting. It's not introspective in any meaningful way.

I've seen that sentiment shared a couple of times in the past day and little else before. Just something I've noticed... I find the self loathing is usually well qualified and not at all a performative act. Performative for who exactly?

The rest of the world, presumably

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#564

Post by VerifiedReports »

philipallstar wrote: post #87
sschueller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.

That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine.

Especially now in the (former) USA.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#565

Post by dgoldstein0 »

dataflow wrote: post #509
sschueller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.

> The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) mi…

Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized. That's a why every bank has a big compliance department - the laws say a lot about who and what they can serve and they have to be on top of it.

Which yes means sometimes legit transactions that match rules meant to catch money laundering and other shady business get blocked or flagged. Sometimes out of avoidance of legal risk, rather than actual certainly anything illegal is happening.

I don't know if the centralized government implementation would be any better in that regard, but at least you could complain to the government instead of having a bank hide behind a law they didn't write but have to enforce.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#566

Post by Aachen »

chpatrick wrote: post #519
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. It separates the payment processor so it does just that, just payments. It is like money, once you give it to someone else there is no automatic way to fish it back from their pocket to yours. The correct avenue to deal with fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor is the small claims court (or civil court, or criminal court). The moment you start burdening the payment processor with the roles o…

If I get sent a fake (or no) product by someone halfway around the world there's absolutely no way I'm getting my money back in small claims court.

Then use a service that offers escrow. I don't need my groceries to use insurance for the eventuality that the store goes belly-up in the 2 days until I can check that the products arrived in good order

Base payment products should just do payment at operating margins rivaling a non-profit. It's public infrastructure

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#567

Post by throwaway2037 »

snovv_crash wrote: post #541
throwaway2037 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only. Also: What is PIX uptake/penetration like in the countryside? China is shocking how fast that countryside wet/farmer's markets started accepting AliPay. Literally, you can buy a kilo of pumpkin (namguo) using nothing but your mobile phone with AliPay, and the old lady running the stand (in a wet market) pro…

In Africa they've had this since ~2005 with the Mpesa system. It basically transfers cellphone credits as payment. In certain regions everyone with a dumb phone was hooked up and you could do anything from buy a coconut from a guy on the side of the road to pay your taxi driver to pay at the supermarket.

Wow, this is a great reply! "In Africa" -> Can you share a few countries? Google tells me that East Africa is the biggest users: Kenya, Tanzania, etc. (No hate on the use of "In Africa here"... as Google tells me it is used in at least 10 different African countries.)

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#568

Post by amunozo »

tamirzb wrote: post #384
jfengel wrote: post #350

(In French.) That could be a massive hassle for American tourists, who will still mostly have Visa and Mastercard. I'm sure that there will be some kind of solution -- I suspect Google Pay and Apple Pay will support the new network. But I'll have to keep an eye out. I might even have to start bringing cash. I used to make that the very first thing I did on landing. The last few times I didn't get any cash at all.

This is already an issue for tourists in many countries that have their own payment system (e.g. Brazil, India, Singapore, Thailand). In some of them you have companies that came up with products for tourists that allow them to pay but they usually come with fees. From what I know the majority of tourists in these countries just travel with cash.

I had that issue in India and it was definitely annoying.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#569

Post by abdullahkhalids »

lxgr wrote: post #323
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks and Visa/Mastercard probably love that you fill out your CC details on an online store, and next time you can just 1-click pay. Probably causes a big jump in revenue/profit. That's why they never innovated much. Of course, it is incorrect, and digital payments everywhere (on a kiosk or online) should be intentional pushes, not pulls.

I want many payments to be pull-based (at least I'd go crazy having to positively sign off every utility bill and subscription), but the ideal user interface for pull payments shows who exactly is pulling what, with a few days notice, and a one-click way to cancel any standing authorization.

That still works. There are three entities: customer, bank and merchant.

The merchant should never be able to pull from your bank account. However, the merchant can send an invoice for a payment. Either the customer manually pushes the payment, or delegates to the bank that each invoice from merchant X should immediately result in a payment push [1].

The difference from the pull system is that the customer can at any point end this automatic push payment, but in the pull system the customer can only beg the merchant (eg. the gym) to stop charging their account.

[1] Or even better in an ideal world, delegate this pushing to their local finance app. So the bank can't put roadblocks for a customer cancelling a subscription.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#570

Post by twoodfin »

injidup wrote: post #505

In Austria I'm always in the situation that shops and restaurants are unhappy that I pay by card because they claim that even a direct debit card cost them some large percentage through the terminal provider. Will these new systems remove the middle man skimming that MasterCard/Visa has been doing to small businesses?

If they really thought this was valueless skimming, why wouldn’t they just refuse to take these cards?
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