Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#561

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

Jonnax wrote: post #379

dahfizz wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect more nuance from an HN reader. It's possible for both amazon and warren to be in the wrong.

I don't see where Warren is wrong here. Care to explain it? Because it seems like the point of view advocated is "Politicans should not express views I don't like on social media"

Instead of “Politicans should not express views I don't like on social media” how about “Politicans should not express the view that ‘people shouldn’t be powerful enough to be snotty to/heckle me’ on any platform.”

It’s the “so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets” part that’s bad. Regardless of how you feel about her campaign to break up big tech, this is an appalling thing for a government official to say. I hate Twitter and Twitter culture as much as anyone, but “you shouldn’t be powerful enough to be snotty to a senator” is dystopian in my book.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#562

Post by LeanderK » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #546

hnarn wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why my personal opinion matters, but even if it does I don't have enough context to understand his tweet. He said: "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." What does he mean by "giving up stock opti…

They won't have access to stock options if they make a decision to unionize. It's simple but people seem to be trying to make it seem convoluted to try to maintain confusion to make it look like they have a case to call it a threat. It's ridiculous. The actual solution in fact is to take the burden off of employers: we need adequate UBI so people don't need to work to survive (including covered healthcare etc), there…

I don't get it. Are you saying that unionised employees are unable to get stock options? It's meant in a literal sense? I thought this was about unions not liking stock options or something like this.

How can this be legal in america? Isn't it pressuring the workers not to unionise?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#563

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #173

bendbro wrote: post #163

[flagged]

> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer. > I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to ta…

> A bad union is just like a bad employer.

> There is nothing stopping a workplace from having more than one union, its quite common in the UK.

I really hope I’m misinformed here, but I don’t think that’s the case in the US and I think it might even be illegal to do it that way here :( It does sound a lot better that way.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#564

Post by Anthony-G » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #523

Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves releva…

> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions

In Ireland there’s a reasonable respect for education – depending on socio-economic background and attitudes young people pick up from their parents – and teaching is still a stressful occupation.

I’ve known a lot of secondary school teachers and unless you’re lucky enough to teach in a well-run school with a majority of students whose parents value education, there’s a huge amount of stress dealing with adolescent behaviour.

In some cases, the teachers are trying to improve the lives of students whose parents who can’t cope because they’re single and struggling to provide for their family and don’t have the time for parenting. In the worst cases, the students have parents who are involved in crime or addicted to drugs.

Bad management of a school by the principal and other administrators can compound. I once lived with a teacher who came home from work crying on a weekly basis because of the abuse she got from anti-social students and the lack of proper disciplinary or management backup meant that the were no serious consequences for abuse of the teacher (or the students who were there to learn). There are many teachers who regularly put up with abuse and harassment that would not be tolerated in any other profession.

The “non-working” hours are spent correcting homework, preparing and refining learning materials, doing administrative paper-work to show what students are attending and/or doing work, follow-up with phone-calls to parents, etc.

I know I wouldn’t want to work as a teacher if the wages were doubled: certainly, the holidays certainly don’t go far enough to balance the day-to-day stress.

BTW, I wouldn’t want to be a nurse either. That’s another profession I have a massive respect for.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#565

Post by pmiller2 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #506

dnautics wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for behaviours, yes, but for rhetoric, you're toeing a very dangerous line up against the 1st amendment.

It's not "free" speech when the audience is being coerced into hearing it. Before you say it, yes, the workers are being coerced. The implicit threat is that they will lose their jobs if they don't listen to the employer's anti-union rhetoric. "Oh, but they can just quit and not be forced to listen to it," you say? Well, no, the average American worker can't afford to just walk away from a job. Thus, it's coercion.

Would somebody like to explain how a job is a "free association" for people who may not be able to cover a $400 expense without borrowing money? Or are we just interested in hitting that down arrow hard enough to make it all go away?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#566

Post by joshuamorton » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #556

joshuamorton wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company is, last I checked, free to reject the union entirely and fire everyone (if they strike). Not to mention your argument should be that cartels should be legal, not that unions should not be.

You may want to check again. A company cannot refuse to bargain with the union, and strikers cannot be fired while on strike.

They can however be replaced, in which case the company doesn't need to rehire the striking workers. Potato/potato.

That's not true if the company is in violation of an existing contract though, then the company is breaking the law and must rehire everyone, but I'll reiterate: they're breaking the law to begin with.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#567

Post by NicoJuicy » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

Anthony-G wrote: post #564

NicoJuicy wrote: post #523

Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves releva…

> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions In Ireland there’s a reasonable respect for education – depending on socio-economic background and attitudes young people pick up from their parents – and teaching is still a stressful occupation. I’ve known a lot of secondary school teachers and unless you’re lucky enough to teach in a well-run school with a majority of students whose parents value education…

> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions

Well, it's labeled "heavy physical activity". I did say it's important work ( eg. Respectful), I also said that's exactly why it could be political suicide by just mentioning it. I also didn't think I dispresected teachers themselves, but directed more to the unions.

Also, special needs are separated and are also labeled "heavy emotional work" here.

In this case, i'm talking about the heavy physical.

Also, the examples you mentioned:

Correcting homework is to be done during a normal workweek. Since no teacher here stands in class full-time ( ~ 26 hours in general).

Contact with parents is 2 days per year during normal days ( mo-fr)

Administrative paper work is done during class, at the start.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#568

Post by musingsole » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

scrose wrote: post #553

NicoJuicy wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand my point. Labelling something incorrect is what I l'm suggesting what they are doing. To stay relevant. So members keep paying their member fees. I'm not saying it has any disadvantages to me and that shouldn't matter at all. Eg. Teachers here in middle school are labeled as a physical heavy profession and receive advantages. Explain to me what is exactly physical heavy about teaching. An…

It seems like the issue you’re pointing out relates to how groups get classified in a ‘physical heavy profession’, no? If the requirements are ‘low’ for that, it sounds like the label itself may be inaccurate and causing unnecessary confusion

Misapplying overloaded labels to sneak into benefit pools a group doesn't belong to is the bread-and-butter of bureaucracy. Once a union has solved the problems that lead to members losing fingers, they turn to regulatory capture like this.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#569

Post by baud147258 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

door100 wrote: post #487

baud147258 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or the deadwood that gets protected because they belong to an union. Or unions being against remote work because that'd reduce employee control. Or union leadership just using their membership to laze around. Or union opposing projects they don't like. Or union harassing (including physically) managers. And to say nothing of railway union who apparently have a Mission to gridlock the country every few years (usually…

Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I described? The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. The worst things people can say about, say, working conditions in many non-unionized American workplaces are far, far worse. People dying, unfairly losing their job…

I'd say that, yes, work laws are better in France than in the US, it's rather obvious, but I can't say that the unions in France are a net good.

Also something I forgot to yesterday: unions that prevents downsizing or restructuring efforts to tackle industry changes, ending by killing the companies in question. Or, when a falling factory is about to be bought, imposing such constraints that all deal fall trough.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#570

Post by mempko » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

tchanglington wrote: post #485

mempko wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great way to talk about your fellow colleagues as dead wood. I would love working with you.

Working together isn’t fun when we’re all out of a job because the factory moved to another country

Don't blame your co-workers. Blame those that made the decision to move the factory (board of directors)