S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#561

Post by flignats » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #552

flignats wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't own it but it is a very simple way to understand why you'd want it as an investment. As for why would you want that? Ledgers are a fundamental part of how many things work. Blockchain is an evolution of the ledger. It literally makes things faster, cheaper, more secure. Bitcoin's blockchain will disrupt (evolve) something. The leading use case is a store of value. If that is to be adopted then bitcoin's…

> It literally makes things faster, cheaper, more secure. How? I'm pretty sure if this was true, everyone would be using it for database work now, except no one does. So these claims are baseless. > Bitcoin's blockchain will disrupt (evolve) something. The leading use case is a store of value. If that is to be adopted then bitcoin's value will be in the trillions. Evolve what? You don't even seem to be sure and are j…

>How? I'm pretty sure if this was true, everyone would be using it for database work now, except no one does. So these claims are baseless.

Business are doing exactly that. They are using private blockchains to improve their existing architecture and enable new features. There is also an entire 'altcoin' market around this.

> So these claims are baseless.

I'm not going to give you a report in HN comments. You should DYOR.

> Evolve what? You don't even seem to be sure and are just guessing that it's novel and surely has some value, but you don't know why?

I'm not the deciding factor in what bitcoin becomes and won't try to guess what its use cases will be. We didn't know why/what the Internet was going to be used for and then it grew and evolved into what it is today.

> Trillions? Where do you get this number from?

Bitcoin's leading use case is a store of value, sometimes referred to as 'digital gold'. It has several improvements to the store of value use case. Gold's market cap is ~$9 trillion. Bitcoin already has a $350mm market cap so trillion+ is likely in the next several years.

Most of what I stated are just facts, you can argue against them all you want. You don't understand why blockchain technology is so important.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#562

Post by dwaltrip » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #559

dwaltrip wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food is just a means to sustain my metabolic processes and create pleasant sensations. It isn't an end-in-itself. If those goals were satisfied through other means, whether by using bio-engineering to modify my physiology or through some other process, would bread no longer have intrinsic value?

This seems uselessly contrarian. Just because there are some philosophical edge cases/open questions about how we identify intrinsic versus extrinsic value doesn't change the fact that today, for human beings, the most useful and practical definition is one in which paper bills don't have intrinsic value but bread does.

I’m just trying to get at the heart of things. I am not trying to be difficult. I honestly don’t find the concept of intrinsic value to be useful or compelling.

What are some examples beyond bread that meet your criteria of intrinsically valuable?

How do you determine if something is an “end-in-itself”? I find it difficult to definitively attribute that label to anything.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#563

Post by shitgoose » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:06 AM UTC

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #504

shitgoose wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

crypto is money. money can be invested, i.e. crypto can be invested. one does not invest in crypto. you are looking from the fiat=the_only_money prospective, which is limited. there are many types of money - fiat, crypto, gold. you can move between them, but those are not strictly investments in a sense of cash flow generation. re intrinsic value - i think that intrinsic value is a fiction. there is always a market v…

How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg?

5. what is the point?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#564

Post by jerrymiller » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #518

doggosphere wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm enjoying sitting on the sidelines and watching people "save" in a fiat "currency" whose value is not linked to anything intrinsic, whose supply can magically be increased at the discretion of a few powerful individuals, and whose value has been declining relative to almost any tradeable assets. What a time to be alive. No wonder the M2 money supply is at an all time high. No one has any idea of what the intrinsic…

“Fiat” money has its value by there being a lot of obligations in it. If I sell stuff for Bitcoin, I still have to pay taxes in Euro to the German State for that. There are a lot of credits in fiat currency that have to be paid off. Currencies are used for valuation and obligations to pay in trade.

How did that work for Venezuela and their currency? USD is heading the same way, just slower.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#565

Post by jerrymiller » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

wizeman wrote: post #491

wayeq wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but you can pay your taxes with USD, and stay out of prison, which is kind of nice.

Practically all fiat currencies that have ever existed can or could also be used to pay your taxes and keep you out of prison, including all the ones that got destroyed or are currently being destroyed by hyper-inflation. So I don't think that it's a good argument for the USD being backed by value.

Exactly. How did that work out for Venezuela and their currency?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#566

Post by shawnz » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

dwaltrip wrote: post #562

shawnz wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems uselessly contrarian. Just because there are some philosophical edge cases/open questions about how we identify intrinsic versus extrinsic value doesn't change the fact that today, for human beings, the most useful and practical definition is one in which paper bills don't have intrinsic value but bread does.

I’m just trying to get at the heart of things. I am not trying to be difficult. I honestly don’t find the concept of intrinsic value to be useful or compelling. What are some examples beyond bread that meet your criteria of intrinsically valuable? How do you determine if something is an “end-in-itself”? I find it difficult to definitively attribute that label to anything.

Fair enough... I am not sure how to precisely describe my interpretation of "end-in-itself". But here are some more things I would consider to have intrinsic value: Other food, clothes, fuel/oil/gas, building materials, consumer goods, etc. Some things like gold have some intrinsic value (for jewellry and electronics) and some extrinsic value (demand just for investments). You might say cash has some intrinsic value since it can be burned or melted down (but it's barely anything compared to the extrinsic value). Then you have bitcoin which literally has no intrinsic value at all, only extrinsic value.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#567

Post by spurgu » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

misnamed wrote: post #349

spurgu wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a society not based on consumerism and quarterly report increases. Gasp! Back in the day people used to get interest (covering more than inflation) from holding money in their bank accounts. What's changed?

Rates have been declining for years (decades, really), but so has inflation. The spread hasn't actually changed that much. > Imagine a society not based on consumerism and quarterly report increases. Gasp! I have literally no idea what that would look like or how Bitcoin would play a role. I guess hodlers who bought early would be rich and normal people poor?

Hmm. Ignore the existing coins for a moment, let's just imagine that starting today everyone gets their salaries paid in bitcoin and that's the only currency you can use.

Assuming the value will slowly (and for the sake of argument steadily) increase, would consumption and innovation stifle to a halt and everyone turn into hodlers?

Saving money would become attractive yes, and loans would become expensive or unrealistic (depending on the rate of deflation).

And companies/businesses would value a steady and solid stream of revenue/profit over hysterically chasing constant growth.

Would this really be so disastrous and why?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#568

Post by JxLS-cpgbe0 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #545

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is exactly Ponzi without a CA Which would be...not a Ponzi Scheme. What makes you say that besides "junk on social media?"

Honestly I think BTC matches this definition - just there is no organizer. Esp the last paragraph. https://www.investor.gov/introduction-investing/investing-ba...

> there is no organizer

So...not a Ponzi Scheme, by the definition you linked to

> Ponzi used funds from new investors to pay fake “returns” to earlier investors

> they use money from new investors to pay earlier investors and may steal some of the money for themselves

There is no "Ponzi," no "they," no one "paying" anyone directly, no "stealing." It's about as far from a Ponzi Scheme as you can imagine. It's The Wizard of Lies without de Niro.

If I go online and post "Apple stock is great!" and it makes someone buy AAPL, and I profit off that as a shareholder, is that a Ponzi scheme? No?

Well BTC is that but without even the business to hold stock in. How could you possibly argue that was a Ponzi Scheme unless, say, you didn't know what that was before you googled it...

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#569

Post by shawnz » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

nootropicat wrote: post #558

shawnz wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference from any kind of resource extraction industry that produces waste heat in addition to the resource?

That the gain from resource's utility is larger than losses, increasing the total amount of wealth in the world. Even in the case of gold, majority of demand is utility demand. https://www.goldbroker.com/media/image/cms/media/images/glob...

I don't really understand. If Gold didn't have use cases as jewellery or for industrial uses then are you saying it would be a net destructor too? How can it be a net destructor if the coins are worth more than the mining energy?

Would Gold become a net destructor if jewellery demand declined for some reason?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#570

Post by mbesto » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

doggosphere wrote: post #475

mbesto wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two ways to look at currency (fiat or otherwise): - Medium of exchange - Store of value Fiat currency has utility for both. If crypto was more widely accepted by merchants (thereby satisfying bullet point #1) then this certainly changes the game. But it's not. Comparing both in their current capacities is disingenuous.

Fiat currency as a store of value is plainly bad, not sure how you determined there is much utility in using it for saving. A US Government 10 yr bond currently yields 0.91%, and has been falling consecutively since its peak in 1981. It is at the whims of whoever decides the interest rate.

> It is at the whims of whoever decides the interest rate.

Which is precisely what makes it a fiat currency - its value is determined by a government entity.

> A US Government 10 yr bond currently yields 0.91%, and has been falling consecutively since its peak in 1981.

You know there are other fiat currencies right?

> not sure how you determined there is much utility in using it for saving.

"store of value" doesn't mean simply saving, it means the asset doesn't depreciate. The alternative to a fiat currency is to hold your goods as is and barter them, which relative to a fiat currency is a bad idea. Your cow eventually dies, your milk eventually soils, your tree eventually dies, etc. etc. In other words those assets all eventually depreciate to zero.