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McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

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Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#561

Post by chris-orgmenta »

ReptileMan wrote: post #458
chris-orgmenta wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it's worth noting that the Neapolitan pizza can only have been in existence since 1548 at the earliest, and there are probably more 'real'/traditional pizzas sans tomato

Actually Neapolitan pizza is 170 years old. Flatbreads have been around for millennia. So pizza in Naples is only slightly older than pizza in Little Italy in NYC. It arrives in USA in 1890s The main problem is that in the great american convenience rush of the 50-s, 60-s etc the tradition is overwhelmed by mass pizza from the chains. And what becomes mass pizza (especially delivered) is inferior product. We have low…

"Actually Neapolitan pizza is 170 years old."

That's interesting, I'm annoyed at my shortcut/assumption in my head that a) it would be older than 170 yrs and b) that there wouldn't be a clear historical record of the exact date. Although, cooked down tomatoes, flatbread etc. presumably met under a different name before that

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#562

Post by cercatrova »

sweetheart wrote: post #556
cercatrova wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of slave? A human slave? They're more valuable in other forms of labor than harvesting their organs (usually; sometimes organ prices can exceed labor value). That's why slavery and organ harvesting still exist after all, if no one thought it was valuable, then it wouldn't exist. We don't have slaves in developed countries because we figured out that former slaves being able to use their brains for labor rat…

This is the most HN response ever.

That's because I'm trying to remove any emotional or moral appeals from the answer and try to focus on the rational answers, because people usually don't respond to moral appeals if they don't hold the same morality worldview as one would. It's like both sides not understanding each other, such as pro choice and pro life people.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#563

Post by cercatrova »

sweetheart wrote: post #554
cercatrova wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like it or not, that's what the argument is of most people who eat meat. I also think my tastebuds are more important than an animal. This is why things like impossible foods sidestep this issue, because they know people don't switch en masse on ethical grounds, but they do it you make a better product, in terms of price and more importantly, taste. If an alien comes to us to eat us, I mean yes, that's just how it is…

So if I can physically overpower someone is it okay for me to keep them as a slave? Is it moral to kill someone if I gain pleasure from the act, as long as I’m physically capable of it? The alien hypothetical isn’t about what is possible, it’s about what is right. Would you feel that the aliens should be allowed to enslave and eat you? Or would you feel like you’re being wronged, and that you don’t deserve it?

Might makes right, so sure, if you were able to enslave someone, why wouldn't you be able to keep them? You just have to fend off from people who'd want to take them away from you, right? After all, we do that with pets, they're our slaves basically.

It's clear that you're trying to say that animals and people are equivalent, that animals are slaves. If I don't believe in that world view, you can't make me care. You could show rational reasons like, eating a vegetarian diet is better to combat climate change, which I accept, but having a moral appeal doesn't move me to change my meat-eating ways.

If an alien can overpower us, sure I'd try to escape because I obviously want to live, but I'd be under no delusion that I deserve to not die. The alien captured and wants to eat me, so that's going to be what will happen. There is a difference between how I feel, what would happen, and what is morally right. I posit that morals don't matter in this case, only power over other beings, which the aliens have over us in this scenario.

Said another way, why should morals matter in this case? I'm genuinely asking, because whenever I ask this, people don't give an actual answer and instead say something like, it's the right thing to do or it reduces suffering, but this uses morality to explain why morality matters, sort of like using the Bible to ask why things that are said in the Bible are true.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#564

Post by cercatrova »

sweetheart wrote: post #555
cercatrova wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that's not the argument that the poster above was making. Good food can be cruelty free, but not all good food can be. Therefore, if you want a specific food that requires cruelty, you're just gonna have to accept that fact. Somewhat related, but why would I restrict my choice of food if I want to eat what I want to eat?

Because it involves horrific agony to be experienced by a living thing.

So what? Again, moral appeals don't move people who do not subscribe to the same world view as you do. If I'm pro choice, I could yell all day that a woman's right to life matters more than a fetus', and if I'm pro life, I could say the opposite. It won't change the minds of people who don't hold those same moral positions.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#565

Post by NewOrderNow »

NewOrderNow wrote: post #537
crooked-v wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I'm not a vegan. Second, vegans avoid animal products because they come from animals . Various imitation and substitute products do not come from animals and so are not avoided. Or, tl;dr: You do realize soy milk is very popular among vegans, right?

Apologies, I failed to communicate my point correctly. What I am trying to say is that vegans are trying to engineer a product. So this product the opposite of natural, so what is with the claims of health? I don't know why I used the word "bad" I find it frustrating as a person who only eats meat and vegetables to have to tolerate vegans who claim health benefits. Most vegans I've met are fat.

Ah no comment as usual from people who claim to want understanding.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#566

Post by NewOrderNow »

astura wrote: post #543
NewOrderNow wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more the concept of wanting something you claim to not want by making a fake version of it. Just eat vegan products? It seems like a cognitive dissonance when I see the words vegan and burger together.

Vegans choose to abstain from animal products, not that they "don't want them." The reasons might be environmental, ethical, moral, or religious, etc... Not important, just that a vegan or vegetarian is simply someone who did a cost-benefit analysis where, to them, the costs of meat (environmental degradation, massive suffering, personal guilt, my-god-said-so, whatever) outweigh the benefits (taste, convenience, soci…

So weak discipline? I don't get it as a person who just eats meat and veggies why you would want something you don't want?

It's like creating a protein based pea that tastes exactly like a pea in every way but made with animal protein and I call it carnivore peas. What you are saying is that you are trying to reverse engineer something for hedonism's sake.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#567

Post by NewOrderNow »

sweetheart wrote: post #550
NewOrderNow wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just claimed that you are a follower and easier influenced.

What does this even mean? Because I like burgers? What?

You literally used the word indoctrinated and you are confused? Do people just fail to use language properly these days?

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#568

Post by maxerickson »

NewOrderNow wrote: post #566
astura wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegans choose to abstain from animal products, not that they "don't want them." The reasons might be environmental, ethical, moral, or religious, etc... Not important, just that a vegan or vegetarian is simply someone who did a cost-benefit analysis where, to them, the costs of meat (environmental degradation, massive suffering, personal guilt, my-god-said-so, whatever) outweigh the benefits (taste, convenience, soci…

So weak discipline? I don't get it as a person who just eats meat and veggies why you would want something you don't want? It's like creating a protein based pea that tastes exactly like a pea in every way but made with animal protein and I call it carnivore peas. What you are saying is that you are trying to reverse engineer something for hedonism's sake.

They aren't trying to reverse engineer anything, they are trying to make food they like that is not also attached to activities they find unethical.

There's no contradiction or dissonance, it's "I find raising and slaughtering animals for food unethical" on the one side and "I like certain flavors" on the other.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#569

Post by rangoon626 »

ornornor wrote: post #430
rangoon626 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One wonders why cancer rates continue to climb

We’re getting older and much better at detecting cancer, most likely.

Or, the amount of industrial chemicals that os entering our food supply is... toxic.

Re: McDonald's is adding plant-based burgers to the menu

#570

Post by cies »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #530
cies wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plants live, fungi live, bacteria live, and animals live. The differentiator is the ability to feel pain. Some small bugs (animals) already show no pain response, but most animals do. It is said plant feel pain, but that's a different kind of pain than pain in animals. Vegans try --when possible-- not to cause pain on others, or reduce it as much as possible. We're against the commodification of animal lives. We (veg…

> Vegans try --when possible-- not to cause pain on others, or reduce it as much as possible. It is worth making clear, however, that not all vegans share these ethical concerns. Other vegans may have adopted the diet for health reasons (China Study or similar) and do not believe that livestock raising and slaughter is unethical.

Nope. In the definition as is very well agreed upon, vegans are against the commodification of animals and do not use/consume animal (derived) products when not needed. This goes beyond diet (hence veganism setting itself apart from vegetarianism which is only a diet).

What you name are people following a plant based diet. Vegan follow pretty much a plant based diet. But other do as well for other reasons that "the vegan reason".

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