A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem • Hacker News Board

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#551

Post by js2 » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:03 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #493

js2 wrote: post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner…

I'm sorry that your marriage ended.

> Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live?

I don't think the author's relationship failed due to lack of compromise or at least that's not communicated by the article. I take the key line in the article to be this one: "My wife communicated pain and frustration over the frequent reminders she encountered that told her over and over and over again just how little she was considered when I made decisions."

We don't know anything else about their marriage. We don't know who cleaned, shopped, did the finances, budgeted, had a job. All we know is that the author treated his wife in such a way that she didn't feel respected or heard.

I also infer that his wife didn't effectively communicate to him what was really bothering her based on this: "If I had known that this drinking-glass situation and similar arguments would actually end my marriage—that the existence of love, trust, respect, and safety in our marriage was dependent on these moments I was writing off as petty disagreements, I would have made different choices."

Without more detail about the disagreements, we just don't know whether she told him why these things were bothering her and he ignored her, or if she just didn't surface the reasons for her upset.

We also don't know whether they saw a marriage counselor. That would be an interesting detail.

One other point I'd add, with apologies to Tolstoy: “All happy marriages are alike; each unhappy marriage is unhappy in its own way.”

Marriages fail for all sorts of reasons. This article is just one example. The author just wants to warn us: this thing that seems trivial to you but annoys your partner may be a metaphor for a larger issue.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#552

Post by dijonman2 » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

nineplay wrote: post #460

dijonman2 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the man is providing for the household then I’d argue that the woman should make every reasonable effort to support her husband. Everything changes all the time without exception. Getting used to change serves everyone.

She's providing for the household by taking care of everything in their lives outside of his specific business functions. He should be making every reasonable effort to support her.

Money isn’t free. The person earning needs to be supported. Running a house is work but I wholeheartedly reject the notion of someone both working and supplicating their partner. This is abuse.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#553

Post by acuozzo » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:06 PM UTC

perpetuummobile wrote: post #93

I struggle with this myself. At the risk of sounding misogynistic: How come it’s always women who can’t deal with these “minor irritations”? I’ve never heard from any of my male friends complaining in this tack.

Have you really never met a guy with OCPD?

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#554

Post by op00to » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

rout39574 wrote: post #523

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner…

Translated into a slightly different venue: if partner A's sense of order is jarred by laundry near, and not in, hamper, but partner B just doesn't care, then the steady state is A always cleaning up after B. A's happiness depends on a certain degree of order in the shared space, and B is oblivious to that degree of order. Or more likely, it requires a conscious exercise of effort to perceive the degree of order. If…

My partner tends to "ruminate" on making phone calls - setting up appointments, customer service stuff, etc. I am on the phone all day for work, so it's no big deal for me to deal with the calls.

Sometimes, I ask my partner to make a call. Most times, she doesn't do it within the agreed upon time period. I either do it myself, she gets to it E V E N T U A L L Y, or it doesn't get done. I used to fight about this because it really isn't "fair" for her to not get this stuff done when she said she'd do it. However, I realized it just wasn't a big deal for me to make the phone calls and deal with this stuff. I'm the one getting pissed over my partner's inaction, not my partner.

Since I just stopped sweating it, making the calls when I felt it was important, and leaving my partner be when the calls are not important, I'm a lot less pissed off about calls. I'm sure my partner appreciates not being bugged over this.

I guess another solution to this could be getting divorced, but that really says to me that the husband wasn't really the problem here and the regret he feels shouldn't be lodged against his own actions.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#555

Post by twh270 » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #498

js2 wrote: post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

We are always told "Accept your significant other - do not try to change them." Why does not that apply here?

It's more "don't try to force change on them". If you think you're going to 'make' your SO stop smoking, watch movies with you, or wash the dishes, you're approaching it the wrong way.

Communicate. Express what is happening and how it is affecting you, in a way that doesn't place the blame on them. (Also, they have to be mature enough not to hear it as blame. Both can be difficult, and just about impossible when your emotions are worked up.)

Then you talk about how to solve the problem. Not in a "your behavior is a problem, how do we change it" fashion, but in a "it's us against this problem" fashion.

In the article, he says "the existence of love, trust, respect, and safety in our marriage was dependent on these moments I was writing off as petty disagreements". Instead of recognizing and respecting her complaints as legitimate -- no matter how minor -- he dismissed them, and thus told her "Your needs aren't important to me".

As he also learned, petty disagreements become major problems when not dealt with. You either take care of them early, when they're still easily tractable, or you wait until they've festered and become a Major Problem. And then they're really difficult to fix.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#556

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #546

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But as child wrote, 'If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?'

If being asked to put a glass in the dishwasher is an assault on one's identity, then so be it. But such a person is probably also ill-suited to marriage or any similar relationship.

You’re missing the point. That’s one instance. Marriages are made up of thousands of these instances. Are you going to change your behaviors for all of those? Because I have, and it is tiring. Resentment builds on both sides.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#557

Post by op00to » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

zrail wrote: post #531

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner…

When you're hurting someone it's on you to stop before they decide they've had enough. After that you can work with them to get what you want in a way that makes sense for you both. Compromise always comes after harm reduction.

When someone is getting hurt by their life partner, they need to speak clearly and explicitly about what is going on and what they want. Expecting your partner to read your mind will end in resentment. Can't reduce harm if you don't speak up.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#558

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:12 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #547

bcrosby95 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to answer in a vacuum. We live where we live because we're 10 minutes from my wife's two sisters, my wife's parents, and 3 cousins our kids love to play with. Generally, I think the only way we're moving is if they move first. Because my wife's whole family is here. And she spends multiple days per week with them. As do our kids. The idea that she should be supportive of me tearing her away from this…

The idea that a well compensated, educated adult can't survive without an extensive support structure for a few years is questionable. Hell, I haven't had a support system at all - my family was actively abusive and antagonsitic to me, and yet I was able to successfully build a career, family, and so on. It's just as likely codependancy as it would be support.

[deleted]

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#559

Post by AussieWog93 » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #470

watwut wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, moving whole family without consent of partner indeed tend to break relationships. Not being able to take major promotion do cause resentment too, but damm, if my partner moved me to region I don't want to, I would be pissed.

But still, I can't imagine not being willing to move to any first world country that my senior executive spouse got transferred to -- as a senior corporate executive they've have a ton of resources at their disposal to make the move as easy as possible. I have a good job that I like, but if my wife told me her company was moving her to Japan for a while, I'd jump at the opportunity.

>I have a good job that I like, but if my wife told me her company was moving her to Japan for a while, I'd jump at the opportunity.

Do you have kids? What's your relationship with your family like? How good/irreplaceable are your friendships?

For a lot of people, dropping all of these things are inconceivable. I know my aunty was reduced to tears when her son (who is expecting a baby) moved from Woodend to Canberra. To her, it meant seeing her grandkids a couple of times a year rather than spending time with them every week.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#560

Post by op00to » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #503

js2 wrote: post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

I can pretty much guarantee that the wife did not say "When you leave a dirty dish by the sink, I feel like you won't do a simple thing that you know will make me happier, and that hurts me and causes me to doubt that you would do anyhing for me that required more effort." Instead, she just griped about the dish. Men are not that perceptive unless they've already been educated about this. Women need to be explicit ab…

Each person must be responsible for understanding, taming, and ultimately mastering communicating their needs and feelings to be a part of a constructive marriage. It's not a male/female thing - that's a distraction. It's a personal responsibility thing. Be responsible for your own happiness by advocating for yourself in a clear way.

Or you'll end up divorced over glasses by the sink.