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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#541

Post by mcdonje »

drekipus wrote: post #400
whilenot-dev wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about communication though, it's about community. Mozilla just introduced a bot to overtake community efforts. > another asking to open a communication channel. The other person is asking to open a private communication channel. OT, but where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from lately?

> where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from Unironically, AI trends.

I'm sure that's contributing, but there are also politicians, business leaders, PR firms, advertisers, etc.

Re: End of Japanese community

#542

Post by sirwhinesalot »

stephenlf wrote: post #525
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

Talking face-to-face is absolutely the right response, though. Would you have preferred a canned apology?

"I'm sorry you feel that way" is a canned non-apology, worse than a canned apology. At least a canned apology admits fault.

I wouldn't want to get into a call with someone with that attitude. If I'm quitting because no consideration was given to me or my work, and the first response I get shows no consideration to me, my work, or even acknowledge my list of grievances, a "quick call" is the last thing I feel like getting on.

In fact, even that word, "quick", is insulting, because there's no way this is getting fixed with a "quick" call. "Quick call" implies the grievances are minor. More insults.

Re: End of Japanese community

#543

Post by jacquesm »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Sorry, but no, you're not going to 'both sides' this in a way that makes the aggrieved party looks like they should shoulder part of the blame. If I was volunteering my time and effort for that many years and it got shredded with zero consideration I'd be just as pissed off. Probably more.

The lack of empathy is what is the problem here, it is reflected in both actions and communications.

Re: End of Japanese community

#544

Post by sirwhinesalot »

grvbck wrote: post #538
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

> This is horrifically patronizing after someone's volunteer work was effectively destroyed This, 100 %. "Your bot just destroyed 20 years of my work." "Naaaw, sorry you feel that way! Let's hop on a quick call so I can explain to you why you're wrong, mkay?" > It's one of those "they live among us" moments, where you realize that you're surrounded by psychopaths. Or has this kind of corporate language/attitude becom…

Yup, you get it.

I wonder if cultural differences might play a role. I'm not from the USA, maybe this way of communicating is perfectly normal there and the rest of the word is just utterly baffled by it?

Where I'm from this is how someone who has no respect for you deals with an inconvenience. Acknowledge no wrongdoing, make the situation about emotions rather than actions (sorry you feel this way), shift the conversation from a public space to a private space with no records.

Re: End of Japanese community

#545

Post by rwmj »

OvbiousError wrote: post #436
denkmoon wrote: post #250

Ladybird and other browser alternatives cannot come fast enough. Every other week we've got a thread here about some stupid move Mozilla have made, I can't remember the last time I heard positive news about Mozilla.

There is a very loud part of HN that strongly dislikes mozilla/firefox. It's disproportionate imo, I don't understand why they're singled out so often.

You have to separate the browser (I'm using it to type this), and the Mozilla corporation / C-suite. The C-suite at Mozilla took the Google firehose of money, spent most of it on their own salaries, followed by idiotic vanity projects, and spent least of all on the browser itself. Never mind building a warchest or anything responsible like that. It's quite rational to dislike what Mozilla managers are doing, while supporting Firefox as a browser and the developers and volunteers who make that happen.

Re: End of Japanese community

#546

Post by flobosg »

clausecker wrote: post #467
v1ne wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, ML is now really good to translate between European languages As somebody who has to regularly bear "German" machine-translated UIs and manuals that originate in English, I can only say: No, it's not. It's atrocious.

Best one was when gedit had the option to syntax highlight for a language named “Los.”

Not a bad name, to be honest!

Re: End of Japanese community

#547

Post by happymellon »

apexalpha wrote: post #345
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

I read it in the following "code".

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced.

This is an emotion that you are feeling, not an actual problem.

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further?

I'm not going to say that anything is actually wrong, we just want to discuss the best way to dismiss this.

> We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

Reiterating that the Japanese translators are the ones struggling to adapt, not that there could be a problem with the new reality.

From my perspective, this is typical middle management speak to allow people to complain into a void without promising improvements. The approach I would recommend if there was going to be some opening to change the approach would have been.

> I'm sorry that the changes to the workflows have disrupted your processes. Would you be interested in hopping on a call so that we can discuss the changes that we will be making, as I think that at least some of the issues have been identified and should be fixed soon? We want to ensure that we do not introduce problems with the community contributions.

Re: End of Japanese community

#548

Post by N_Lens »

OvbiousError wrote: post #436
denkmoon wrote: post #250

Ladybird and other browser alternatives cannot come fast enough. Every other week we've got a thread here about some stupid move Mozilla have made, I can't remember the last time I heard positive news about Mozilla.

There is a very loud part of HN that strongly dislikes mozilla/firefox. It's disproportionate imo, I don't understand why they're singled out so often.

Maybe because HN folk are more familiar with Mozilla leadership fuckups and "less than ideal" decisions?

Re: End of Japanese community

#549

Post by [deleted] »

crazygringo wrote: post #106
rtpg wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Maybe not what the person meant but ho…

> - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Anyways the point is just that one side of this relationship here clearly cares about the problem way less, and _even when presented with that fact_, does not even pretend to be actually sorry for the damage they are causing. This is just a single initial reply from a "community support manager…

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#550

Post by rwmj »

stephenlf wrote: post #525
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

Talking face-to-face is absolutely the right response, though. Would you have preferred a canned apology?

No it's not! There's a support forum right there, use it. The only reason they want a call is because they want to try to grind down the volunteer while having everything off the record.
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