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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

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Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#541

Post by ChrisLomont »

EricE wrote: post #484
ChrisLomont wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor in…

lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.

>Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations.

Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you.

>And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.

I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however.

>few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors

I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU.

Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#542

Post by JoeAltmaier »

da_chicken wrote: post #533
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those 'good' are very good, or good at all. The buttons on the front are a few cents. On a $1000 appliance, that benefits only the manufacturer (if even them). Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer. More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use. Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in…

"It doesn't help me personally immediately right now," is certainly a take you could have, sure. Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely skeptical about IoT. I'm an experienced sysadmin, and that means I hate technology. There is a massive legislative need to protect the public from the damage these devices could do to customer rights, and the legislatures we've had for almost as long as I can remember are about as interes…

If IoT was done responsibly, then we'd be more willing to try. The example was wifi connecting something that gave no benefit, and introduced significant risk (having a bad actor inside your wifi network). It doesn't take a scientist.

IoT could be done so much better. First, give some benefit (E.g. give you a service call when something went wrong).

And Why not use a simple VPN to the host? Encrypt the link some other way? Hell, require a password?

I've programmed IoT device firmware for clients. I put in security - they want it removed. Because it makes installation harder for their staff. No profit in it.

I'd run from any IoT device today. Until we have some legislation or accountability or even UL rating for security, there will be no security at all.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#543

Post by adolph »

akhosravian wrote: post #493
adolph wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> functionality updates The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.

My kitchen aid has a white light that comes on when it finishes running, and automatically shuts itself off when it is closed. As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.

> fishing a single item out

This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."

Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.

https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#544

Post by sneak »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #280
sneak wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All those things mandated for cars are related to safety. I believe that the current EU mandate for cars is that they must have cellular connectivity, which is of course for calling emergency services in a crash. I think "ostensibly for safety" is a better description of some of it.

Wow, I thought you must be wrong, but apparently this does exist. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em... However, this only activates and sends data in the event of a crash. Additionally, under EU law consent would be needed for any other uses of this data (and hell no would I be giving consent).

I assume being a cellular transceiver it maintains communications with the tower at all times, even when not sending payload data.

This would allow the device to be tracked from cell to cell by IMEI, if this is indeed how it works.

Note that a mobile device does not need to be registered with the tower to make emergency calls (it works in a cell with no sim!) so it may not actually permit this type of tracking, but also car manufacturers might put a subscriber module in to maintain IP connectivity for additional services even if the car owner doesn't subscribe. This configuration (such as was factory installed in my 2015 BMW 4 series) does allow for carrier/tower-based location tracking.

I had mine ripped out.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#545

Post by WilTimSon »

ninkendo wrote: post #201
WilTimSon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate, that's one-time setup, it's not like you have to do it every time you launch a dishwasher. I still see little value in "smart" devices but it's not like they actively make you work more for the same result. I'm more worried about everything being dependent on WiFi and your personal data.

If every little thing you buy has a similar "one-time setup", you're going to be doing a lot of setting things up in your average day/week/month.

But the only things that have them are appliances. I rarely buy appliances, once in, I dunno, five years? Maybe rarer?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#546

Post by Ajedi32 »

fsflover wrote: post #502
Ajedi32 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I've become more sympathetic to Stallman's philosophy in recent years, but it's really only "freedom 1"[1] that I find potentially valuable. The other freedoms (such as 2, which effectively abolishes copyright) would destroy the industry if they were forcibly applied to all software. [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms

If you only have freedom 1, you must be a software developer (with a lot of free time) to benefit from that.

The important part of freedom 2 (freely distributing patches to copyrighted software) is already allowed by existing copyright law. You own the copyright to your patches, not the company whose software you're patching.

Extending that freedom to allow distributing the end result of those patches to people who don't have a license to use the original software (as freedom 2 does) would just be another, slightly less direct way of abolishing software copyright.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#547

Post by acuozzo »

Someone1234 wrote: post #299
qalmakka wrote: post #281

There should be, by law, a "dumb mode" on all non-computing devices. Something that disables all smart features and reverts the device back to its basics. This "smart home" trend is a dangerous fad that trades security and privacy for very dubious gains.

Most of the time there is: Do not connect it to the internet.

I've observed "smart" TVs connect to every open WiFi network in range until successfully dialing home.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#548

Post by acuozzo »

denton-scratch wrote: post #415
nrvn wrote: post #205

here is the problem statement: 1. Get a technology proven to have solved a given problem more than 100 years ago. 2. Throw ICs on top of it. 3. Put “smart” into marketing materials. 4. … 5. Profit There is nothing in any dishwasher[0], fridge, vacuum cleaner, washing machine, ${you_name_the_home_appliance} that would require to be smarter than they are without those (actually far from smart) hardware and software tha…

> imposed on customers They are imposed, because dumb equipment is getting harder to find. You can't buy a dumb TV any more. It'll soon be the same with dishwashers and washing machines. Incidentally, I don't want a smart machine with a 90's mode; that gives you all the complexity and unreliability of a smart machine. I've heard that industrial-grade clothes washers are reliable. My toaster is a Dualit, and has no el…

> You can't buy a dumb TV any more.

FWIW, you can.

New dumb TVs are marketed as "digital signage" and sold to businesses at a much higher price point.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#549

Post by sneak »

EricE wrote: post #477
stragies wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the "Remote-force-stop" functionality, that all new cars must have in some territories. Using that same network-connection to access the rear bumper-cam to automatically search for "interesting" license-plates is just an added bonus for LEO.

Ugh - reenforces why I am babying the crap out of my existing "dumb" cars and have zero intentions of getting a new car any time soon - if ever!

The safety innovations in new cars are great. The BT/Wi-Fi and GSM radios can be physically removed or disabled.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#550

Post by stjohnswarts »

michaelt wrote: post #51
buro9 wrote: post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

> The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc. Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.

LOL my exact thoughts. I mean I would think the kinks would be worked out before it hits my kitchen. I mean it's a dishwasher, not a robotic arm assembling cars with sub mm resolution. Add an emergency usb connection for critical upgrades as in "woah we missed something really big" and be done.
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