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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

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Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#471

Post by ChrisLomont »

EricE wrote: post #421
imiric wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pr…

"A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex." Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved. Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really neede…

>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved

By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers.

>designers start to wedge them in just because they can

Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#472

Post by AlwaysRock »

pmontra wrote: post #79
michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc. Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.

To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)

Or remove features altogether because they don't want to support them anymore!

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#473

Post by obert »

EricE wrote: post #454
strangattractor wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My LG TV would not let we watch until I updated my Terms of Service. The only option was to agree or not be able to use the TV I had already purchased and paid for.

Never connect it to the Internet. Just use a Roku instead of the horrible built in apps. Honestly I'm amazed that so many people actually connect their "smart" TVs to the Internet. No way in hell!

not everyone likes Roku interface, and not everyone wants to or can plug in something on the back of the tv

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#474

Post by EricE »

alistairSH wrote: post #93
quacked wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any regulation barriers to selling "dumb" devices in the modern market? I've made the same point about pickup trucks--the 2002 Toyota Tacoma is a far preferable vehicle than the 2022 Toyota Tacoma for many truck owners, but when I've brought that up, people have pointed out that a number of laws make it impossible to sell a clone of the old version (must have backup cameras, must have X, must have Y, etc.)

All those things mandated for cars are related to safety. Back-up cameras are required to prevent drivers from running over small children. ABS and stability control to prevent crashes. Etc. And none of them, in a simple implementation, reduce the usability of the car/truck. No such mandates exist for home appliances. The connectivity/apps are purely a money-grab - either people like the general idea of connected dev…

>All those things mandated for cars are related to safety.

There really is a benefit for a Mazda MX-5 Miata to have a backup camera? It would be far more of a distraction than just swiveling your head. Not to mention the e-waste cost of all the useless components in millions of similar cars.

One size fits all solutions should be the rarest of the rare, not the norm. Tire pressure sensors? Sure - useful and most people don't think to check (heck I don't check as often as I should!). But complex crap like cameras and screens in a car the size of a go-cart? Utterly ridiculous and beyond wasteful.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#475

Post by psyc »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #466
gameswithgo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, but so far in my 43 years of life feature updates are usually things that are hostile to the user.

So things are now generally much less user friendly than 43 years ago?

Yes. Both more capable and less user friendly. 40 years ago a TV had three physical controls and one input.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#476

Post by spikej »

Vrondi wrote: post #446
feoren wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem: People are writing bad software with bugs and dark patterns. Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!? It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arg…

No, but if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open. Your car/dishwasher/washing machine/thermostat/door locks should not stop working because some brilliant small company was bad at the profit side of things and folded. They should not stop working because some large company simply got bored and decided to follow another market trend. This is why user repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of…

This even goes for older smart phones. Just because the company needs to turn a profit, doesn't mean I have the means to continually upgrade every 2 years. I love the efforts people put into things like LineageOs.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#477

Post by EricE »

stragies wrote: post #190
sneak wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All those things mandated for cars are related to safety. I believe that the current EU mandate for cars is that they must have cellular connectivity, which is of course for calling emergency services in a crash. I think "ostensibly for safety" is a better description of some of it.

Don't forget the "Remote-force-stop" functionality, that all new cars must have in some territories. Using that same network-connection to access the rear bumper-cam to automatically search for "interesting" license-plates is just an added bonus for LEO.

Ugh - reenforces why I am babying the crap out of my existing "dumb" cars and have zero intentions of getting a new car any time soon - if ever!

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#478

Post by 0xffff2 »

Vrondi wrote: post #436

Hilarious! I cannot comprehend why anyone would buy a dishwasher with wifi. Ever. A dishwasher worth having should last at least 10 years. By the end of that time, the wifi security spec it is compatible with is likely to be a huge security hole in your home network, as you will be 1-2 wifi specs newer in most cases due to router replacements. Sheer stupidity.

Can't speak to dishwashers since my 20 year old model that came with the house is still working just fine, but I replaced my fridge and washing machine in the last couple of years. It's honestly hard to find a decent appliance that doesn't have WiFi built in. So far, simply not setting up the WiFi on my modern appliances has worked just fine (i.e. after peeling off the sticker telling me how to connect, the thing works just like a non-WiFi appliance).

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#479

Post by cactus2093 »

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #391

Is it weird that the more tech becomes like this the more I feel checked out? I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a…

It's funny that you picked a thermostat as an example, because in my experience the old pre-wifi Honeywell thermostats that many new apartment buildings had for the last 10-20 years (and most hotels still have today) were the pinnacle of horrible UX. The most popular consumer smart home brands today, like Ring and Nest, are mostly a huge step up from the early-2000's precursors to smart devices. And the worst smart devices I have used in recent years are from the brands like GE that just threw wi-fi into these old clumsy confusing interfaces, which it sounds like is what your thermostat is.

The genius of Nest in my opinion was the UX improvement of having one big number in the middle showing the set temperature, you can always see what it's set at and just turn left or right to change it. Basically going back to the same UX of those 1960's era thermostats that you're talking about, but with extra options like remote access available if you want them.

In terms of thermostat UX I now have the best of both worlds, I love the simplicity and I also love being able to change the temp without getting up from the couch, plus the "eco mode when away from home" feature has generally been rock solid for me and saves money while reducing emissions.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#480

Post by 0xffff2 »

EricE wrote: post #345

Stuff like this is why I'm starting to wonder if I need to hoard non-connected appliances now before they aren't available any more. I certainly have zero intention of ever buying a new car again either. I hope to be buried with my late 90's/early 2000's "dumb" cars :p

For new appliances, just don't connect them to your WiFi?

I agree about new cars though.

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