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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#541

Post by dahart »

sokoloff wrote: post #539
dahart wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question is getting at the reasons for causality, and not necessarily whether there is a causality. The answer of course is complicated, in that school aptitude depends on family history of education and socio-economic status, and a wide variety of other factors. As far as I can tell, it is clear and widely agreed that just having a degree provides some degree of earnings benefits regardless of aptitude or histo…

My main point is: Observing a difference in income in the presence of a degree is evidence of correlation , but not of causation .

And mine is that the existence of causation has been established. The debate amongst researchers is over the weights of various causes, not whether it’s just a correlation.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#542

Post by toast0 »

oblio wrote: post #294
caf wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. I hear this kind of thing, but I have to say it is less than convincing when most of the people saying it don't seem to be sending their kids to trade school.

Well, my logic is: if you go to university (ideally STEM) and have a modicum of practical skills, how hard really is it to become a plumber later in life? I'd imagine plumbing studies are shorter, some stuff you can probably transfer over from your university studies and you can probably apprentice reasonably easily somewhere.

Many trades and plumbing in particular have a large complement of contortionism. I do a small amount of home owner plumbing, but I wouldn't be likely to do it as a second career because pretzeling to get to the sink fasteners gives me aches for a week; and I'm not going to dig out underground pipes in easy soil, but around here it's all rocky stuff.

If I was apprenticing 20 years ago, the pretzel work would be fine, and I would probably be more willing to dig.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#543

Post by 52-6F-62 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #453
datapls wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

> I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." I've never met one either, but I've definitely met plenty of people who think the opposite: if you had any advantages of any kind over anybody else, your accomplishments don't "count". The only people who can actually be proud of what they've achieved and deserve what they have are people who were thrown away in a dumpster at birth, grew up in a…

You're misinterpreting the discussion, I think. I can't tell if it's intentional or not.

Nobody was coming down on anyone for their accomplishments.

My intended contribution was that some (or in my experience, many) people in already achieved positions, regardless of how they arrived in their materially advanced station, might mistake the circumstances of another who is less materially fortunate as being so because it's a product of the less fortunate person's intrinsic inner worth.

And when someone, who is trying to breach those meritocratic strata for financial or other material rewards, encounters that kind of mindset in their superiors it can be terribly inhibiting—like trying to climb a hill of ice that refuses to believe it's slippery of its own accord and that the continual flailing of the climber is a failing of the climber alone. Or sometimes that would-be climber prefers to stick around the plains and enjoy the views. Neither of those situations makes the would-be climber a less-capable, less whole person—even if the would-be climber cannot see the icy hill for what it is.

("Why not pick a better hill" is about as controllable as "why not be born into a more materially advanced family")

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#544

Post by cloche »

paul_f wrote: post #167
faitswulff wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wall Street Journal has a great infographic here comparing how many hours of worth it would take to pay median rent today versus in 1968: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-does-the-federal-minim... Spoiler: it’s not pretty.

A better comparison would be the price per square foot. The median rent today buys a MUCH larger (and nicer) house than it did in 1968. The average house in the US has increased by 1,000 square feet in the last 50 years. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

Most renters are not renting "New US homes" and rent does not buy a house. It's a pretty poor comparison.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#546

Post by codyswann »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

I've been a mid-level manager, upper-level manager and now run my own company. I simply won't hire or promote someone who isn't a hard worker.

Does it guarantee success? Nope.

Is it a requirement for success in many circumstances? Yep.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#547

Post by curation »

Historically, serfs who were convinced by their ruling lords, that they were free, believed in hard work. The biggest difference from today is, in late feudalism, serfs had more holidays than us: Indeed, if we’re to believe Dr Lynn Parramore, senior research analyst at the Institute for New Economic Thinking, we’re working a lot harder than medieval peasants did. “Ploughing and harvesting were backbreaking toil,” she says, “but the peasant enjoyed anywhere from eight weeks to half the year off.”https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/compared-to-you-an...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#548

Post by Zababa »

tristor wrote: post #460
Zababa wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done both tech and minimum wage, the difference is that I can do the minimum wage job and they couldn't do mine. Minimum wage jobs often use humans as robots, and most humans can move around in relatively complex ways all days - that's what our brain evolved to do. I can do it, the minimum wage workers can do it. On the other hand most people can't write code. I'm not confident that most of the people that I w…

I think this is an important point, and one that is rarely discussed. We've seen our economy shift to one where the highest paid jobs are those that are based predominantly on knowledge (doctor, lawyer, engineer, and also licensed trades like plumber, electrician, etc.). Knowledge is something anyone can attain, but some people gain knowledge easier than others... we generally refer to that ability to gain and retain…

I agree with most of the points you made, however:

> Knowledge is something anyone can attain

I don't agree with this. I don't have a proof for this, but I think this is the kind of thinking that can trap people (and society) in the mindset of "they should work more" or something. Where I live (France), people with disabilities can get money from the state because they're considered "unfit for work". This doesn't mean that they can't and shouldn't work, but that compared to the average person, working for them is harder so we try to make life easier for them, to compensate. I think something like that for "intelligence" could be nice (although I wouldn't know how to measure it).

We already have something that looks like UBI in France (RSA) but it's not really universal. For example, I don't benefit from it because I work. Students also don't get it. I like the idea of UBI though, not having to work to live is appealing to me in principle.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#550

Post by clipradiowallet »

adkadskhj wrote: post #499
jstummbillig wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are far better off than the average American household you could definitely consider yourself wealthy.

I dunno.. these are loose definitions but i make enough that i'm confident i can pay off my mortgage, make meaningful contributions to my retirement and not be afraid of money (outside of job loss, at least) . I also significantly budget for things like home repairs, car repairs, medical expenses, etc. I could lose my job tomorrow and be safe for 6 months, 12 if i needed to. I have no financial concerns outside of jo…

That's exactly how I would describe my own situation. From the outside looking in, people with less economic means think that my situation is "perfect", and that it equates to no worries(it does not).

Job loss is the only big worry, and even in that situation it wouldn't be difficult to find a similar job with similar pay. I know that is a comfort that not everyone(or most people) has. Knowing that this seems to be "as good as it gets" when compared to the majority of Americans is what makes me very, very sad.

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