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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#491

Post by esens »

kradroy wrote: post #484
esens wrote: post #37

Working hard but doing so for someone else can often not lead to significant gains. Many services like Uber or InstaCart or even McDonalds or Amazon Warehouse or Walmart or Retail Sales or call center, you can work hard but there is no where to progress to. Your rewards are capped. You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Startups were you get equity. Large companies whe…

This is a naive set of statements, even the ones without tone-deaf conditionals like "if you are able to rise" and "if you can get something better". Here's a run-on reality of your statements. "Startups were you get equity." ... that gets watered down and most of which goes to investors and founders, who will force a sale after 5-7 years when they get into a pinch and all you get is a $75k retention bonus that doesn…

I think you are a bit more cynical than I am.

But I do agree you are correct that switching jobs every couple of years is an effective way of raising your salary often faster than if you stayed in the same place.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#492

Post by nr2x »

blitz_skull wrote: post #348
nr2x wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people live paycheck to paycheck just to barely cover food and shelter for their children. I don’t think the problem is influencers, it’s actual, old fashioned, poverty.

Many less people live like this, however, than 50 years ago. It IS old-fashioned poverty, combined with exponentially increased expectations. And there's a thousand books out there that prove that folks on the flip side aren't really any happier than those in poverty. Living a life devoid of purpose is just as soul-sucking as living a life of poverty. Perhaps more so.

As somebody who bought groceries and diapers on a credit card to survive and now makes ridiculous money at FAANG, I can assure you poverty with a child is a million times worse. A life free of economic anxiety is itself a massive privilege, “happiness” and “fulfillment” aren’t part of the equation if you don’t know if your kids will go hungry, that’s just abject terror.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#493

Post by [deleted] »

lettergram wrote: post #145
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

I think we need more studies and evidence to create meaningful predictions. Now, I’m going to remove any moral or emotional thoughts for a moment. Sure there may be a correlation between wealth and future success, but hasn’t that always been the case - it’s a fact of nature. The most successful genes are able to procreate leading to success. What we did is say “all humans need to have the same vindication’s” and ensu…

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#494

Post by rawtxapp »

treis wrote: post #477
rawtxapp wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching people get a bunch of money over and over for no work starts to make you question things. You're ignoring risk. Do you feel the same way when people win lotteries? Because everybody has access to Robinhood, so nothing is stopping you from gambling on penny stocks or random crypto and you just might get retirement money or lose it all.

>Do you feel the same way when people win lotteries? I mean that's the point. Lotteries are supposed to be lotteries. The economy is supposed to be an economy where people earn what they receive.

I see where you're coming from, but people earn without risk, when I go to work from 9 to 5, I'm getting my paycheck, I know exactly how much it's going to be, I know exactly what time it's going to be deposited into my account, etc.

When I put my capital to work, I might earn, but I might also lose a lot (ask anyone who bought Bitcoin at 63k$ for example). Obviously, in a capitalist society, capital is the most important thing (I'm not saying that's right or wrong).

Also, if you have millions of people "investing" in the stock market, even in penny stocks, a few of them are bound to get right, you just don't hear too much about people that lost it all.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#495

Post by afpx »

nexus_dave wrote: post #103
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

How do they get the capital to start a business? Do they come to the US already wealthy or well-connected? Many people I know would be interested in doing the same but aren't sure how.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#496

Post by simiones »

everdrive wrote: post #469
simiones wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wealth and influence can compound over time and groups of people would gain influence, power, and money. And this is the expected outcome of a perfectly meritocratic system. It is not. In a meritocratic system, children wouldn't inherit resources, access to education would be conditioned purely by merit, and so would access to jobs, finance opportunities etc. The nepotism rampant (edit: was "inherent") in corporati…

This is interesting, and I've never heard this definition of egalitarian. It certainly does solve the philosophical problem I've raised. I'm curious (genuinely) if large numbers of people are seriously suggesting such a system. How would it even be implemented? Well-off parents cannot buy their children clothing or food? They cannot give their used car to their children? Etc? That rich parents could not pay extra for…

Here's an old-school socialist vision for this (say, something along the lines of what Noam Chomsky would advocate):

- society (through local community funds etc) would ensure that everyone, regardless of anything else, has access to basic livelihood (food, shelter, clothes, transport, healthcare)

- society would ensure that everyone has access to the same educational institutions, including required resources (manuals, computer access etc.)

- people would strive to evaluate others based on actual aptitude, rather than class markers (e.g. someone speaking with a heavy "uneducated" accent or wearing low quality clothes wouldn't be looked down upon being evaluated for a professorship or top management position)

- inheritance would be heavily taxed; this would be set up in such a way that people would have a right to the human elements of inheritance - e.g. the home where they grew up, their parents' memories etc. - but huge transfers of wealth, such as inheriting your parents' Amazon stock would not be profitable.

Better off parents will still be able to give a better life and resources to their children, but the impact of that care on the ultimate outcomes will be much less. A "perfectly meritocratic" system would likely be horribly dystopic, such as entirely separating children from parents at birth, Brave New World style.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#497

Post by ewmiller »

esens wrote: post #37

Working hard but doing so for someone else can often not lead to significant gains. Many services like Uber or InstaCart or even McDonalds or Amazon Warehouse or Walmart or Retail Sales or call center, you can work hard but there is no where to progress to. Your rewards are capped. You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Startups were you get equity. Large companies whe…

Yes, except there has been a concerted effort by monied interests in the upper strata of society to convince those below that organizing to demand better wages is useless at best or un-American at worst. It's an uphill battle.

> Startups were you get equity. Large companies where you can progress to high salaries if you are able to rise. Starting your own business and being competent at it. Working on commissions in an area where the commissions can be large -- true sales, or real estate. Being a professional, e.g. doctor, accountant, lawyer, has traditionally had high wages and you often run your own business.

This is all great if you have an aptitude for participation in the knowledge economy. That's not everyone. There used to be much more high-wage blue-collar work available to those who didn't fit that mold, but that has been ebbing away over time as America's manufacturing economy has been hollowed out.

Stronger unions and collective bargaining in the dwindling blue collar work that still exists is my only idea for how to improve things, but I'm not an expert.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#498

Post by ryandrake »

mdorazio wrote: post #415
dougmwne wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I propose Success = Hard Work * Opportunity^2. That is to say that hard work without opportunity equals nothing and opportunity without work equals nothing. But work and opportunity do not have a linear relationship, a bit more opportunity can greatly leverage a bit of extra work. Big opportunities practically become self-fulfilling. Just look at all the poor students who became president. Their lack of work in schoo…

Personally, I think there's a Luck component separate from Opportunity that needs to be factored as well. You can start with a great opportunity and get absolutely destroyed or outlandishly rewarded by bad or good luck separate from anything you do (ex. COVID destroys one kind of business while pushing another through the roof). Something like... Success = Hard Work * Opportunity^2 * Luck

This equation's better but you need to factor in "starting point" as another poster put it. Consider person A and B, with the same hard work, opportunity, and luck. If person A starts out with a $10M trust fund, he will have more success.

Success = (Hard Work + Head Start) * Opportunity^2 * Luck

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#499

Post by adkadskhj »

jstummbillig wrote: post #447
adkadskhj wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's also other cases where kids grew up without education (like myself) - but could have, but if i were to have kids now i'd value education immensely. Ie i'm not an immigrant, my lack of early education is a result of my family being poor and making poor decisions. However now my values have shifted drastically. Ironically i would consider myself very lucky. Not wealthy by any means, but far better off t…

If you are far better off than the average American household you could definitely consider yourself wealthy.

I dunno.. these are loose definitions but i make enough that i'm confident i can pay off my mortgage, make meaningful contributions to my retirement and not be afraid of money (outside of job loss, at least). I also significantly budget for things like home repairs, car repairs, medical expenses, etc. I could lose my job tomorrow and be safe for 6 months, 12 if i needed to. I have no financial concerns outside of job loss right now.

My view however is that this isn't wealthy. Instead this is where the middleclass should be. I don't make enough to retire early (though i could probably extreme FIRE, but that doesn't sound enjoyable to me). I'm not by my definition wealthy, just safe, satisfied, happy. No fancy cars or homes, just a stable honest and predictable living. These are traits that, in my mind, America should strive to bring to all people.

Unfortunately i've not seen this spread. I've only seen it decrease. People far more and more on the edge of collapse, with no safety net in their bank, no budget for emergency expenses, no possibility of retirement.

Relative to the current state of America i am wealthy. To me that is very, very sad.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#500

Post by brundolf »

jcims wrote: post #197
colanderman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first I've heard of tipping trash collectors. Apparently it's a thing? How, logistically, does one even accomplish that?

I had a fridge of meat go bad. Triple bagged it then tipped them $60 (maximal divvy potential) for dealing with it. Just tape an envelope to the can with a little note, they'll figure it out.

Maybe this is an American thing, but the trucks in my neighborhood have a big mechanical arm that grabs the trash can and dumps it. The guys only get manually involved if there's extra, or a loose bag, or something else unusual. I'm worried they wouldn't notice an envelope taped to the top under normal conditions
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