Live data from Hacker News

Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

upi.com

541–550 of 673 posts

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? America has been here for a long time. It's fair to say that values which are of long standing, still held by a significant fraction of the population, and them disproportionately descended from ancestors who have been American for many generations, are more American val…

> values which are of long standing, still held by a significant fraction of the population, and them disproportionately descended from ancestors who have been American for many generations, are more American values than ones which fail one or more of these criteria So, in an Oregon context, this would mean the values of the Chinook peoples?

Not really, no.

For starters, we're talking about Eastern Oregon, so if you wanted to throw a gotcha, you should have gone for the Paiute.

America is a nation, and it took its time getting to Oregon. The Chinook were never particularly numerous, nor influential on the values of that nation. That's just a fact.

The Iroquois League was more influential, the Founding Fathers were very impressed with their system of governance, though how much of that made it into the Constitution is a matter of debate. Painting with a broad brush, centuries of contact with the native peoples of this continent has certainly left its mark. The Western ethos of self-reliance and freedom owes a lot to them.

The Native American people are both their own nations and a part of the American nation. Speaking as one American, I'm inclined to value their contributions, but it seems a bit presumptuous for me to say that Apache or Navajo values are American values.

To continue down the road you've set us upon, the American descendants of slavery went unheard for many years, but starting no later than Frederick Douglass became a key part of shaping the ethos and values of the nation. They insisted that "all men are created equal" meant all men, and put an end to white supremacy, which was certainly an American value and just as surely is no longer such.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#542
post #539
post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling the people behind the proposal aren't doing it for political gain. It sounds like they are fully resigned to their group's lack of political power in the region, and just want some respite. Less competitive elections sound great to me. That would imply that whoever won would have good majority support and maybe politics would fade into the background where it belongs.

Like in Russia or China?

How about just like an Eisenhower or Kennedy or Mandela? Competition isn't a good sign in politics, it just means people havent reached a good consensus.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#543
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? There's a very present "last bastion" framing in most of the right-wing media I track. It'll depend on exactly what the foundational beliefs of the community are that drive this framing -- John Birch society derivative folks arrive here via a different path than white su…

Thanks - as a non-American living there, this is pretty helpful to further my understanding. I wonder whether there's any actual examples of the values being brought back from a point where they have disappeared.

Many American values are fuzzy, hard to make out; how they are applied is only visible if you dig into history. Not the history in textbooks though ... at least until you've innoculated yourself with Howard Zinn's history. Pay particular attention to how those values - say, 'all men are created equal' - apply to minorities.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are of the opinion that the "nut jobs" in Oregon are not currently residing in Portland, attempting to burn down federal courthouses for hundreds of days at a time?

Fox News reports the same dumpster fire each night (often just reusing video footage each day), I’m not sure how serious they are if they are aiming to burn down the courthouse. Yes, dumpster fires are illegal and those starting them should be punished, but it’s a stretch to say they are trying to burn down the courthouse.

I don't watch Fox News, wouldn't know. But you're under the impression that the illiberal black bloc collectives do not exist in any serious capacity in Portland?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of insufficient funds. They spent five billion dollars on shareholder dividends while corporate documents show they were completely aware the equipment was breaking down and posed a wildfire risk, and they broke multiple state regulations to do so.

Some background to add to the above: https://twitter.com/tubetimeus/status/1306366930899460097 and https://www.buttecounty.net/Portals/30/CFReport/PGE-THE-CAMP...

The Camp fire report was riveting after-work reading. The financial engineering to avoid opex and instead magnify capex as a way to bilk the ratepayer is ingenious and evil. Further, their operating procedures and culture seem carefully engineered as a liability dodge. Read the report, it's amazing.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#546
post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

> Though I find understanding the deeply divided viewpoints in the US very elusive.

Self induced tribalism.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how it runs contrary to the rule of law. Im not aware of any legal obstructions that couldn’t be overcome, especially if everyone involved wanted it to succeed.

It’s not that the laws could not enable this, but none do. They have free agency. Why would the state reshape itself to satisfy people who are prisoners to their own psychosis alone?

What purpose does the state serve, if not to empower the people. If some regions want to join another state, why not enable them if it is not inherently hostile or damaging to others? Perhaps the rest of the state would be happy to see these people and the land they live on go.

It seems like you are defaulting to a pretty negative opinion of these people.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#548
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove through a few of the counties (eg. baker) mentioned in the article to visit a dog breeder, and the breeder had (nearly) her own highway exit. Complete with 2 overpasses. Must cost millions to build and maintain. Her house was the only one visible for as far as you could see from that exit. All i could think about was how much better her life was for that exit and how all her total tax income forever could nev…

How many families are you going to feed with that extra million you saved now that the numerous farms you couldn’t see from the highway overpass can no longer ship food? “I have always lived in very liberal, expensive, coastal cities” — please, please venture out of your safe bubble more, for the sake of all of us. Go tour a real farm, not the local micro-organic commune one nearby. See how they work.

Obviously we still need to be able to ship food, i said that.

I don't live in those cities by choice (well, i chose jobs there... lots of tech in BOS/SF/etc).

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove through a few of the counties (eg. baker) mentioned in the article to visit a dog breeder, and the breeder had (nearly) her own highway exit. Complete with 2 overpasses. Must cost millions to build and maintain. Her house was the only one visible for as far as you could see from that exit. All i could think about was how much better her life was for that exit and how all her total tax income forever could nev…

> and the breeder had (nearly) her own highway exit This is the key assumption on which your statements are based on. How do you know the state built it for her, rather than, she built her house next to the highway exit? I find it hard to believe that the state would build a highway exit specifically for a few normal individuals.

Obviously it is the other way around! She is just likely one of the only people who uses it since there is few others around

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's probably less crazy than having almost 40 million people be represented by just 2 senators when Wyoming has the same number of senators for barely half a million people. This was purposely the design of the Senate. This complaint should be more applied to the House, where we stopped increasing the number of reps as population grew

I don’t think the founding fathers really understood how much the population of the states would diverge over the years.

I didn't have a good offhand feel for how the ratio of large to small state populations has changed, so for whatever it's worth, the ratio between the largest and smallest state at various times:

1790: 12x (Virginia : Delaware)

1850: 36x (New York : Florida)

1900: 173x (New York : Nevada)

1950: 93x (New York : Nevada)

2000: 69x (California : Wyoming)

2020: 68x (California : Wyoming)

Post reply on HN