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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#541

Post by treeman79 »

_qulr wrote: post #523
mattmanser wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

The iPhone is not a store. The App Store is a store. Epic wants to be on the iPhone, but not necessarily in the App Store. Ideally, Epic wants to run its own store on the iPhone. In any case, App Store is the only store in town, where the "town" is the 1.5 billion iOS users. If there's only 1 store, with no competing stores, that's an entirely different situation legally.

Monopoly. At some point this will head to regulators

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#542

Post by inopinatus »

dang wrote: post #463
dang wrote: post #181

All: these Epic vs. Apple threads, and $BigCo vs. $BigCo threads in general, have unfortunately been seeing more name-calling, accusations of manipulation, flamebait/unsubstantive posts, and other things that break the HN guidelines. If you comment, can you please avoid that? Reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html would help. The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoug…

This is a stub comment to collect the replies so we can collapse them, to prevent offtopicness. Sorry, no-JS users.

If you didn't already, consider taking look at the details/summary elements (https://caniuse.com/#search=summary) which provide a non-JS method for collapse-by-default and as of late have quite good evergreen support. They're fairly versatile, I've even used them recently for JS-free context menus. The only gotcha (the 80% implementation part) is in consistently overriding their default styles on all platforms.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#543

Post by Spivak »

wvenable wrote: post #491
systemvoltage wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share a different view on this. I want Apple to have as much control over as they can to keep my device safe. Obviously, this is an unpopular opinion on HN - part of me wants it super hackable and open source (my hacker self), but my average joe self wants is as tied down, closed doors as possible to avoid sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, and a whole bunch of "soft metrics" about my device to…

> Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads - they already got their revenue hunger satiated from the high price of my device and all the internal Apple services I pay for (Apple music, TV, icloud, etc). They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand. They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control…

> They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control it.

They disallow cloud gaming for the same reason they disallow non-generic screen mirroring. Because people would use it to circumvent the App Store policies. I’m sure it nets them some cash to do this but I’m sure they would be happy to take 30% of the cloud gaming subscription revenue and allow it. Can you imagine if Facebook didn’t want to follow App Store rules and just streamed the app?

> They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand

This is just f.lux. I don’t see Apple banning notes apps in droves. And f.lux ran into the issue of Apple adding the feature and then suddenly f.lux running afoul of “you can’t sell OS functionality” which is a good rule in general. Android is rampant with apps that charge for push notifications.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#544

Post by hakfoo »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

> Wallmart choose their suppliers, and sets the markup, why can't Apple?

But, at the end of the day, Walmart can't prevent customers from proceeding to Kroger down the street to get the products or deals they want. That's the market regulator of last resort in most circumstances.

You say "Apple doesn't have a monopoly on phones or games". In the broad view, you may be right, but they've spent significant effort in creating a closed ecosystem with non-trivial switching costs, inside of which they DO have complete gatekeeping power. They may not have a full "prevent the customers from going to Kroger" power, but they can basically say "here's a several hundred dollar toll to leave our store, and BTW, we won't let you back in for anything else we sell", which is a pretty high barrier. Is the only available counterweight for their behaviour "drop everything and buy a new $500 phone to express your discontent?"

Google gets out of this with their hands much cleaner-- they can retreat to "Well, you can sideload apps". Epic proved they can make that a viable business that way on Android. But iOS offers nothing resembling that without asking consumers to jailbreak their devices, which is probably beyond reasonable accommodation.

I'm sort of amazed they're so desperate to cling to the no-sideload mentality. Offering sideloading with a lot of big angry red warnings immediately defuses the vast majority of anti-competition complaints, while still being scary enough that most name-brand software isn't going to immediately drop off the App Store. I'd also think it presents a welcoming option for some hobby developers, where even the $100 annual developer fees are prohibitive, until they can show there's enough of a business there to justify going to the real App Store.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#545

Post by sfifs »

pvg wrote: post #505
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. I keep seeing seeing assessments in this vein but they can't really be right - the courts would have to be toddler-level naive not to see through it. They aren't - here's Judge Rogers addressing Epic at the recent hearing (as reported by Sarah Jeong): "To Epic: Your client created this situation. Your client does n…

What I think is happening is Epic is trying to force a jury trial on anti-trust and won't hold out for a settlement unlike Amazon and Netflix. At this stage all Epic's actions are geared basically around collecting arguments to bring in front of a jury composed of regular folks.

I'm very confident the old Steve Jobs emails from the eBooks anti-trust case will also be brought into the trial to argue anti-trust is in Apple's DNA.

That's also the reason for that silly 1984 ad parody, so they can bring Apple's original 1984 ad into the trial and make an argument of hypocrisy in front of the Jury - once they were plucky upstarts but now as the most valuable company, they're vampire like etc.

Other vendors are also at this same time taking the opportunity to test Apple store rules limitations - either for Epic to be able to add those additional arguments to their own case OR possibly for them to get standing to join the suit - look at the PR yesterday around Facebook donations to creators hurt by Covid being blocked by Apple store rules.

In this situation, there's very little role the judiciary can play except move the process along. It's going to be a fun battle to watch.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#546

Post by _qulr »

Spivak wrote: post #530
_qulr wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone is not a store. The App Store is a store. Epic wants to be on the iPhone, but not necessarily in the App Store. Ideally, Epic wants to run its own store on the iPhone. In any case, App Store is the only store in town, where the "town" is the 1.5 billion iOS users. If there's only 1 store, with no competing stores, that's an entirely different situation legally.

Apple will do just fine arguing that their devices are no different from Xbox, PlayStation, Switch, Roku, Cable Boxes, Keurig, Vzw feature phones. I would be extremely surprised if the courts just up and anti-Tivo’d every device on the planet. You try to make a case about how phones are somehow special but they’re really not. You have millions of people who only have an Xbox and so you can’t reach them unless you con…

The case is not about closed platforms in general, it's about monopolistic behavior. In the US (the legal jurisdiction), Apple is the largest smartphone vendor by far, with ~50% market share. Epic is trying to show that Apple is abusing its market dominance. That's the case.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#548

Post by jonny_eh »

_qulr wrote: post #523
mattmanser wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

The iPhone is not a store. The App Store is a store. Epic wants to be on the iPhone, but not necessarily in the App Store. Ideally, Epic wants to run its own store on the iPhone. In any case, App Store is the only store in town, where the "town" is the 1.5 billion iOS users. If there's only 1 store, with no competing stores, that's an entirely different situation legally.

Similarly, if I can buy an iPhone from a store (like Target), and it contains a store… why can't I get Fortnite from the App Store then buy V-Bucks from Fortnite?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#549

Post by pvg »

_qulr wrote: post #538
pvg wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not any sort of expert in this and can't really re-litigate what happened at the hearing. It can't be the case, though, that Epic is pulling some clever Grand Admiral Thrawn Hyperpoker move here if every commenter on the internet along with United States District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers can tell what it is after about 3 seconds thinking about it.

The strategies on both sides are fairly obvious. On Apple's side, the strategy is to make an example of Epic, in order to dissuade other developers from becoming "rebels" too. It all depends on who ultimately wins the lawsuit, and that's up the in the air. It's a fairly high risk strategy on both sides, but it'll pay off for the winner. Apple is probably confident (perhaps overconfident) that they'll win in the end.

The strategies on both sides are fairly obvious.

If that's the case, the thing you said in your original comment and what I'm taking issue with seems very unlikely - that "Apple is playing right into his hands". For this to work, everything happens to be obvious to everyone except Apple and the court who are somehow inexplicable naifs.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#550

Post by hannasanarion »

philplckthun wrote: post #519
pvg wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. I keep seeing seeing assessments in this vein but they can't really be right - the courts would have to be toddler-level naive not to see through it. They aren't - here's Judge Rogers addressing Epic at the recent hearing (as reported by Sarah Jeong): "To Epic: Your client created this situation. Your client does n…

Just some thoughts; I actually found this phrasing really interesting, because clearly “you cannot have irreparable harm when you create the harm yourself” is provably incorrect. The judge won’t let this influence the decision on not extending the injunction to the Epic Games contract with Apple because of an earlier point, which is that two separate contracts exist. It’s interesting that this has been addressed with…

The judge is using "irreparable harm" as a term of art. What he's saying is you cannot have standing to sue for irreparable harm that you inflicted on yourself.

You can't deliberately crash your own car and then go to court demanding the manufacturer give you a whole new one because the crash revealed a loose screw.

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